Q. [By Mr.
Jennings] You are the sister of Miss Lizzie Borden?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long
have you lived at the home where you were living at the time of the
murder, Miss Borden?
A. I think
twenty-one years last May.
Q. Did your
sister Lizzie always live there too with you?
A. Yes sir.
Q.
Yourself, your father, Miss Lizzie and Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you
know what property Miss Lizzie Borden had at the time of the murder?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Will you
produce the evidences of it, if you have them with you?
[Various
vouchers produced]
MR.
KNOWLTON. All I want, Mr. Jennings, is the list. I raise the question
as to its competency.
MR.
JENNINGS. Oh yes. The District Attorney, your Honors, does not require
me to make formal proof. As I understand it, he simply reserves his
right to object.
MR.
KNOWLTON. You may state it yourself. You need not trouble the witness.
MR.
JENNINGS. Deposit, subject to check, of $170 in B. M. C. Durfee Safe
Deposit and Trust Company. Deposit, subject to check, of $2000 in the
Massasoit National Bank, Fall River. Deposit in the Union Savings Bank,
Fall River, $500. A deposit of $141 in the Fall River Five Cents
Savings Bank. Two shares of the Fall River National Bank, April 3,
1883. Four shares of Merchants' Manufacturing Company stock, date of
certificate March 8, 1880. Five shares of Merchants' Manufacturing
Company stock, date of certificate December 22, 1881.
Q. Did your
father wear a ring, Miss Emma, upon his finger?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was or was not that the only article of jewelry which he wore?
A. The only
article.
Q. Do you
know from whom he received the ring?
A. My sister Lizzie.
Q. How long
before his death?
A. I should think ten or fifteen years.
Q. Do you know whether previously to his wearing it she had worn it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did he
constantly wear it after it was given to him?
A. Always.
Q. Do you know whether or not it was upon his finger at the time he was
buried?
A. It was.
Q. Have you
an inventory, Miss Emma, of the clothes that were in the clothes closet
on Saturday afternoon, the time of the search?
A. I have.
Q. Will you
produce it?
A. I have
of the dresses.
MR. MOODY.
Taken at the time.
MR. JENNINGS. No.
Q. When was
that made up?
A. About a
week ago.
Q. Was it
made up from your recollection?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were
there on the afternoon of the search?
A. I was.
Q. Do you
know what dresses were in there that afternoon?
A. I do.
Q. Will you
state either from your own recollection or by the assistance of that
memorandum what the dresses were?
MR.
KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I do not object to the question except as to
the memorandum.
Q. Well,
how many dresses were in there?
A. I can't
tell you without looking at this paper.
Q. Well,
can you tell us about how many?
A.
Somewhere about eighteen or nineteen.
Q. And
whose were those dresses?
A. All of
them belonged to my sister and I except one that belonged to Mrs.
Borden.
Q. How many
of those dresses were blue dresses or dresses in which blue was a
marked color?
A. Ten.
Q. To whom
did those belong?
A. Two of
them to me and eight to my sister.
Q. Were you
there on the afternoon of Saturday while the search was going on?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you
know how minute or extended that search was?
A. I heard
you say that every—
Q. You
cannot say what you heard me say. Did you hear Dr Dolan or Marshal
Hilliard? A. I asked Dr Dolan if they had made a thorough search—
MR.
KNOWLTON. Wait a minute, madame, if you please. I pray your Honors'
judgment as to that answer.
Q. What, if
anything, did Dr Dolan say to you as to the character of the search
which had been made?
MR.
KNOWLTON. I object.
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. The Court's recollection of Dr Dolan's testimony is that he
testified to the character of the search. If you want to show anything
different from what he testified—
MR.
JENNINGS. I think I have a right to put it in—
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. You may show it.
Q. Will you
answer the question? [The last question was read.]
A. He told
me the search had been as thorough as the search could be made unless
the paper was torn from the walls and the carpets taken from the floor.
Q. Did you
or Miss Lizzie, so far as you know, at any time make any objection to
the searching of any part of that house? .
A. Not the
slightest.
Q. Did you
assist them in any way you could? .
A. By
telling them to come as often as they pleased and search as thorough as
they could.
Q. Now,
then, Miss Emma, I will ask you if you know of a Bedford cord dress
which your sister had at that time?
A. I do.
Q. Won't you describe the dress, tell what kind of a dress it was?
A. It was a
blue cotton Bedford cord, very light blue ground with a darker figure
about an inch long and I think about three quarters of an inch wide.
Q. And do
you know when she had that dress made?
A. She had
it made the first week in May.
Q. Who made
it? .
A. Mrs.
Raymond, the dressmaker.
Q. Where
was it made?
A. At our
home.
Q. What
kind of material was it as to cost? Do you know what the price of it
was?
A. Very
cheap.
Q. Do you
know, have you any idea what it cost?
A. It was
either 12 cents a yard or 15 cents.
Q. About
how many yards do you think there were in it?
A. Not over
eight or ten.
Q. In what
way was it trimmed?
A. Trimmed
with just a ruffle of the same around the bottom, a narrow ruffle.
Q. How long
were you in making the dress, do you know?
A. Not more
than two days.
Q. Did you
and Miss Lizzie assist the dressmaker in making the dress?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That was your habit, was it?
A. Yes sir,
I always do.
Q. And where was the dressmaking carried on?
A. In the
guest-chamber.
Q. Was that
where the dressmaking was always done?
A. Always.
Q. Do you
know whether or not they were painting the house at the time that dress
was made?
A. I think
they did not begin to paint it until after the dress was done.
Q. Do you
know anything about her getting any paint on it at that time?
A. Yes, she
did.
Q. Where
was the paint upon it?
A. I should
say along the front and on one side toward the bottom and some on the
wrong side of the skirt.
Q. How soon
was that after it was made?
A. Well, I
think within two weeks; perhaps less time than that.
Q. Now
where was that dress, if you know, on Saturday, the day of the search?
A. I saw it
hanging in the clothes press over the front entry.
Q. How came
you to see it at that time?
A. I went
in to hang up the dress that I had been wearing during the day, and
there was no vacant nail, and I searched round to find a nail, and I
noticed this dress.
Q. Did you
say anything to your sister about that dress in consequence of your not
finding a nail to hang your dress on?
A. I did.
Q. What did you say to her?
MR.
KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment as to that. That
is clearly incompetent.
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. The question may be answered.
Q. What did
you say to her?
A. I said,
"You have not destroyed that old dress yet; why don't you?"
Q. Is that
all that was said?
A. All that I remember.
MR.
KNOWLTON. I don't think, may it please your Honors, that answer should
stand.
Q. What was
the condition of that dress at that time?
A. It was
very dirty, very much soiled and badly faded.
Q. Was this
material of which this dress was made in a condition to be made over
for anything else?
A. It could not possibly be used for anything else.
Q. Why?
A. Because it was not only soiled, but so badly faded.
Q. When did
you next see that Bedford cord dress?
A. Sunday
morning, I think, about nine o'clock.
Q. Now will
you tell the Court and the Jury all that you saw or heard that morning
in the kitchen?
A. I was
washing dishes, and I heard my sister's voice and I turned round and
saw she was standing at the foot of the stove, between the foot of the
stove and the dining-room door. This dress was hanging on her arm and
she says, "I think I shall burn this old dress up." I said, "Why don't
you," or "You had better," or "I would if I were you," or something
like that, I can't tell the exact words, but it meant, Do it. And I
turned back and continued washing the dishes, and did not see her burn
it and did not pay any more attention to her at that time.
Q. What was
the condition of the kitchen doors and windows at that time?
A. They
were all wide open, screens in and blinds open.
Q. Were the
officers all about at that time?
A. They were all about the yard.
Q. Was Miss
Russell there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What do
you do with your rags and pieces of cloth that you had this morning, or
what did your sister do with those that she had? What was the custom?
MR.
KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment.
MR.
JENNINGS. I will withdraw that question for a moment, with your Honors'
permission.
Q. Did you or your sister keep a rag bag?
MR.
KNOWLTON. Wait a minute—
A. We did
not.
MR.
KNOWLTON. I pray your Honors' judgment.
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. Excluded.
Q. What was
done with the pieces of cloth, or pieces of old dresses, or old dresses
that you had to dispose of?
MR.
KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment.
Q. Or that your sister had to dispose of?
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. Excluded.
Q. What was
the custom and habit of your sister in disposing of pieces of clothing
or old dresses?
MR.
KNOWLTON. I pray your Honors' judgment.
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. Excluded.
MR. JENNINGS. We desire to save an exception to that, your Honor.
Q. Was
anything said by Miss Russell in the presence of Miss Lizzie, in regard
to this dress?
A. Miss
Russell came to us in the dining room [Monday] and said Mr. Hanscom
asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the
tragedy, and she told him "Yes," "and of course," she said, "it is a
falsehood." No, I am ahead of my story. She came and said she told Mr.
Hanscom a falsehood, and I asked her what there was to tell a falsehood
about, and then she said that Mr. Hanscom had asked her if all the
dresses
were there that were there the day of the tragedy and she told him
"Yes." There was other conversation, but I don't know what it was. That
frightened me so thoroughly, I cannot recall it. I know the carriage
was waiting for her to go on some errand, and when she came back we had
some conversation and it was decided to have her go and tell Mr.
Hanscom that she had told a falsehood, and to tell him that we told her
to do so. She went into the parlor and told him, and in a few minutes
she returned from the parlor and said she had told him.
Q. Now at
the time when Miss Russell said "It was the worst thing that could be
done"- A. Oh, yes sir, she said that Monday morning. When she came into
the dining room and said she had told Mr. Hanscom that she had told him
a falsehood, we asked what she told it for, and [she] said "The burning
of the dress was the worst thing Lizzie could have done," and my sister
said to her "Why didn't you tell me? Why did you let me do it?"
Q. Now,
Miss Emma, do you recall a story that was told by Mrs. Reagan about a
quarrel between yourself and your sister? A. Yes sir.
Q. Was your attention called to the fact by me?
A. It was.
Q. How soon
after it, do you know?
A. The
morning following.
Q. That is,
the morning the story was published in the paper?
A. I think
so, yes sir.
Q. Now,
Miss Emma, on that morning did you have any conversation with Miss
Lizzie in which she said, "Emma, you have given me away, haven't you?"
A. I did
not.
Q. And did
you say in reply, "No, Lizzie, I haven't." "You have," she says, "and I
will let you see I won't give in one inch." Was there any such talk as
that?
A. There
was not.
Q. Anything
like it?
A. Nothing.
Q. That
morning or any morning?
A. No time,
not any time.
Q. Was
there ever any trouble in the matron's room between you and your sister
while she was there?
A. There
was not.
Q. Any
quarrel of any kind?
A. No sir.
Q. Or
anything that could be construed as a quarrel?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Lizzie put up her finger and say anything about not giving in?
A. No sir.
Q. At any
time?
A. No sir.
Q. Now when
you went out did I say to you, "Have you told her all?" And you say,
Everything"?
A. No sir;
you did not.
Q. In order
that there may be no mistake, Miss Emma, I would like to ask you again,
who was it that said she had told a falsehood to Mr. Hanscom?
A. Miss
Russell.
Q. Said she
had told a falsehood?
A. She had
told a falsehood.
Q. [By
Mr. Knowlton] On the day that this thing happened you were in
Fairhaven?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long
had you been in Fairhaven?
A. Just two
weeks.
Q. And you
were visiting?
A. Mrs.
Brownell and her daughter.
Q. Had you
seen Miss Lizzie during the two weeks?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When?
A. Well, I
can't tell you what day it was. . . she had been at Fairhaven.
Q. Was it
on her way over to or back from Marion?
A. Oh, I do
know. She went to New Bedford when I went to Fairhaven, and I think it
was the Saturday following our going Thursday.
Q. That is,
she went to New Bedford the same day you went to Fairhaven?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long
had you lived in that house, do you say? All your life-time?
A. No sir;
I think about twenty-one years.
Q. Was any
change made in the house when you began to occupy the whole house?
A. Two of
the sleeping rooms downstairs were made into a dining room.
Q. You have
lived there ever since?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Live
there now?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And live
there alone now?
A. Except
with the servants.
Q. Had you
any other near kin on your own mother's side, [in addition to Mr.
Morse]?
A. We had
other uncles and one or two aunts.
Q. Where did they live?
A. All but
one live West. I have an aunt, Mrs. Morse, who is living now. She lives
in Fall River. Her maiden name was also Morse. I do not visit her very
often. My father had a great many cousins, one sister and no brother.
The sister is Mrs. Harrington. She sometimes came to our house. Mr.
Harrington did not, except to call at the door to inquire for my sister
or for me. My stepmother had a half-sister in Fall River: Mrs.
Whitehead. She owned half her house, and my stepmother the other half.
My father bought the interest in the house and gave it to my
stepmother. This was five or six years ago. I think he paid "$1500 for
it.
Q. Did that
make some trouble in the family?
MR.
ROBINSON. Five or six years ago-I object.
The CHIEF
JUSTICE. She may answer.
Q. Did that
make some trouble in the family?
A. Yes.
Q. Between
whom?
A. Between
my father and Mrs. Borden, and my sister and I.
Q. And also
between you and your sister and your stepmother?
A. I never
said anything to her about it.
Q. If you
will observe the question, I did not ask you that; it is a very natural
answer, I find no fault with it. Did it make any trouble between your
stepmother and Lizzie and you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you
find fault with it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And did
Lizzie find fault with it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And in
consequence of your faultfinding did your father also make a purchase
for you or give you some money?
A. Not-I
don't think because of our faultfinding.
Q. Did he,
after the faultfinding, give you some money?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How
much?
A.
Grandfather's house on Ferry Street.
Q. And was there some complaint that that was not an equivalent?
A. No sir.
It was more than an equivalent.
Q. That it
wasn't so productive of rent as the other?
A. I don't
know what the other house rented for, but I should think that ours
rented for more than hers.
Q. Were the
relations between you and Lizzie and your stepmother as cordial after
that occurrence of the house that you have spoken of as they were
before? A. Between my sister and Mrs. Borden they were.
Q. They
were entirely the same?
A. I think
so.
Q. Were
they so on your part?
A. I think
not.
Q. And do
you say that the relations were entirely cordial between Lizzie and
your stepmother after that event?
A. Yes, I
do.
Q. Have you
ever said differently?
A. I think
not.
Q. Did your
sister change the form of address to her mother at that time?
A. I can't
tell you whether it was at that time or not.
Q. She
formerly called her "Mother", didn't she?
A. Yes sir.
Q. She
ceased to call her "Mother", didn't she, practically?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And
wasn't it about at that time that she ceased to call her "Mother"?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Wasn't
it five or six years ago?
A. It was
some time ago.
Q. What
address did she give her after that time?
A. "Mrs. Borden."
Q. And up to the time when she changed she had called her "Mother"?
A. Mostly.
Q. From her
childhood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And
don't you recall that was sometime in connection with the transaction
in relation to the house?
A. No sir,
I do not know when it was.
Q. Do you
say that you have not said that the relations were not cordial between
your sister and your mother?
A. I don't
remember that I have.
Q. You
testified at the inquest, did you not?
A. I did.
Q. Were you
asked questions in relation to that matter?
A. I don't
remember what you asked me.
Q. Do you
remember the answers that you gave?
A. Only two.
Q. Do you remember whether you answered the questions truly or not?
A. I tried
to..
Q. Do you
remember that I asked you if your relations were cordial between you
and your mother?
A. I think
you did either then or before the Grand Jury. I don't remember which.
Q. Do you
remember you said that they were not?
A. I don't
know whether I did or not.
Q. And do
you remember that I then asked you if the relations between your sister
and your mother were also cordial?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you
still say that the relations between your stepmother and your sister
Lizzie were cordial?
A. The last
two or three years they were very.
Q.
Notwithstanding that she never used the term "Mother"?
A. Yes sir.
Q. They
remained cordial?
A. For the last three years they were.
Q. For how
many years before that were they not cordial?
A. I can't
tell you. I don't know.
Q. Now, I
want to ask you if you didn't say this: "Were the relations between you
and your stepmother cordial?" Answer: "I don't know how to answer that.
We always spoke"? A. That was myself and my stepmother.
Q. Do you
remember that answer?
A. I do now.
Q. "That
might be, and not be at all cordial" Answer: "Well, perhaps I should
say no then." Do you remember that, talking about your-self?
A. No sir,
I don't remember it.
Q. "Were
the relations between your sister and your mother what you would call
cordial?" Answer: "I think more than they were with me." Do you
remember that answer?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The next
question is pretty long, "Somewhat more than they were with you, but
not entirely so, you mean perhaps? I do not want to lead you at all. I
judged from your answer you mean that, or don't you mean that? You say
somewhat more than your relations were. Do you mean they were entirely
cordial between your stepmother and your sister Lizzie?" Answer: "No."
A. Well, I
shall have to recall it, for I think they were.
Q. That is,
do you remember giving that answer?
A. No sir.
Q. How does
it happen that you remember the answer in which you did not explicitly
state whether they were cordial or not, but don't remember an answer,
if one was given, in which you said they were not cordial, which was
the following question?
A. I don't
understand.
Q. That is
a little involved perhaps. You do recall the question next preceding
that in which you said "Somewhat more than they were with me"?
A. Not
until you read it, I did not.
Q. You did
recall it then?
A. Yes, I
think I did.
Q. But when
the next question, if I may assume to say so, was put to you, if it was
put, and such an answer was given by you, you don't now recall that
answer?
A. I don't
seem to remember it.
Q. Will you
say you didn't say that?
A. No sir, not if you say I did.
Q. And
would you say that was not true-I haven't said you did at all, Miss
Borden, if you will pardon me. Don't understand me as saying that you
said anything, so that I think that answer is not pertinent to my
question. Do you recall now that it is read to you saying that?
A. No sir,
I don't.
[The
stenographer read the preceding question and answer as follows. "Will
you say you didn't say that? A. No sir, not if you say I did."]
The
WITNESS. I don't say I didn't say it, if you say I did. I don't
remember saying it.
Q. Do you
understand me saying I do? Now, I do not say you did, and have no right
to say you did. I haven't said anything about it. I am asking whether
you gave that answer to such a question as that: "Do you mean they were
entirely cordial between your stepmother and your sister Lizzie?"
Answer: "No"? A. I can only say I don't remember giving it.
Q. Whether
you said it or not, do you say that is true, that the relations were
not entirely cordial between your sister Lizzie and your stepmother?
A. I think
they were for the last three years.
Q. So that
whatever you said then you say so now; you say that is so now?
MR.
ROBINSON. Well, I submit—
MR.
KNOWLTON. I don't press that question.
Q. Now I
will read you this question and answer: "Can you tell me the cause of
the lack of cordiality between you and your mother, or was it not any
specific thing?" Answer: "Well, we felt that she was not interested in
us, and at one time Father gave her some property, and we felt that we
ought to have some too; and he afterwards gave us some." Do you
remember that?
A. No sir.
Q. Is that
true?
A. It was true at the time that he gave us the house.
Q. I will
read another question: "That, however, did not heal the breach,
whatever breach there was? The giving the property to you did not
entirely heal the feeling?" Answer: "No sir."
A. It
didn't, not with me, but it did with my sister after.
Q. Do you
remember making any such distinction in your answer to that question?
A. I don't
remember the question nor the answer.
Q. Neither
one?
A. No sir.
Q. Miss
Borden, do you know of anybody that was on terms of ill will with your
stepmother?
A. No sir.
Q. So that
you knew of no enemy that your stepmother had in the world?
A. No sir.
Q. The room
that she occupied was the room directly over the sitting room?
A. No sir.
Q. Your
sister Lizzie?
A. Oh, yes
sir.
Q. That is what I mean. And the room that you occupied was the room
adjacent to it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were
much the older?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Your
room was very much smaller?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Had you
previously occupied a different room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Which
room had you previously occupied?
A. My sister's room.
Q. Had you occupied it with her or had she occupied a different room?
A. She had
occupied a different room.
Q. Which
room had she occupied?
A. The one
that I now have.
Q. When was
the change made?
A. I don't
know.
Q. How long
ago, about?
A. I should think not more than two years.
Q. The room
that you occupy was a room that had no exit excepting through her room?
A. No sir.
Q. Was the
change made at her request?
A. No sir.
Q. At your
own suggestion?
A. I
offered it to her.
Q. Was it
in consequence of anything said by her?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you
make any use of the guest chamber?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What
for?
A. As a
sewing room.
Q. Did you
receive your friends there?
A. Oh, just
as it happened. If it was someone we were very well acquainted with and
we were in there sewing, we had them come up.
Q. And
didn't you usually receive your friends there?
A. No sir.
Q. Didn't
you usually receive Miss Russell there?
A. Very
often.
Q. Miss Borden, how long has Bridget Sullivan been with you?
A. About
two years and nine months.
Q. Did she
have any duties upstairs, I mean in regard to your sleeping
room?
A. No sir.
Q. Who took
care of your own room?
A. I did.
Q. Who took
care of Miss Lizzie's room?
A. She did.
Q. And when
there was anything to be done with the guest chamber, whose duty was it
usually to take care of that?
A. Usually
I did.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie have any particular duties about the housework?
A. She did
anything that she cared to do.
Q. She had
no particular duty assigned her?
A. No, I
don't think of any.
Q. And you
usually reached your bedroom by the front stairs?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And Miss
Lizzie too, I suppose?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was the
front door usually kept locked at night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And
bolted?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Who
attended to that, if you know, usually?
A. The one
that was retiring last.
Q. And who
usually unlocked it in the morning?
A. Usually my sister.
Q. Have you
ever caused any search to be made for the note that your stepmother was
said to have received that day?
A. I think
I only looked in a little bag that she carried down street with her
sometimes, and in her workbasket.
Q. You
didn't find it?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you
caused any search to be made for the supposed writer of the note?
A. I think there was an advertisement put into the paper.
Q. By your
authority?
A. Yes sir.
Q. In the
News, wasn't it?
A. I think
so.
Q. The News is a newspaper of large circulation in Fall River?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And it
was there for some time, wasn't it?
A. I
couldn't tell you I think several days perhaps.
Q. And did
that notice also include a request for the messenger as well as the
writer of the note?
A. I think that it did. It requested the one that carried it.
Q. Have you
made any other search besides that?
A. No sir.
Q. You
spoke, one time in your testimony, of getting Mr. Hanscom. Who was he?
A. A
detective.
Q. Employed
by whom?
A. By us.
Q. "Us"
means whom?
A. Why, my
sister and I.
Q. When?
A. I think
the first time I saw him was the Sunday after the tragedy.
Q. Where
did you see him then?
A. At our
home.
Q. And was
he at your house considerably?
A. No, I
think not.
Q. From
time to time?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he
remain in your employ any length of time?
A. I don't
know how long.
Q. I would
like an approximate idea. Was it two or three days or two or three
weeks? Which is nearer?
A. Well, I
should think nearer two or three weeks, but I am not sure.
Q. Have you seen the hatchet that has no handle?
A. No sir.
Q. You
never have seen it?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you
know anything about any such instrument?
A. No sir.
Q. And you
didn't know that there was one that was broken in the house?
A. Not until you asked me something about it.
Q. Where
was that that I asked you?
A. Before the Grand Jury.
Q. Did any
of the members of your family have waterproofs?
A. Yes, we
all had them.
Q. What
kind were they?
A. Mrs. Borden's was a gossamer, rubber.
Q. That is,
you mean rubber on the outside?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And
black?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where
was that hanging?
A. I think
she kept it in the little press at the foot of the front stairs in the
front hall.
Q. Did Miss
Lizzie have one, too?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where
did she keep hers?
A. In the
clothes press at the top of the stairs.
Q. What
kind of one was that? A. Blue and brown plaid, an American cloth.
Q. And you
had one too?
A. Mine was
gossamer.
Q. Did you
have yours with you in Fairhaven?
A. I did.
Q. Do I
understand you to say that no interview whatever took place that had
any foundation like what has been described by Mrs. Reagan, as you have
heard it described? A. I mean to say there was nothing of that kind
said.
Q. And there was no sitting silent for any length of time that morning?
A. I can't
remember. I don't know.
Q. She said
you remained seated in your chair, if I may be allowed to put it so,
and she on the sofa with her back turned away from you, and you
yourself remained an hour and a half. If I get the time right, did that
take place?
A. I have
no recollection of anything of that kind.
Q. Miss
Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. An
intimate friend?
A. No sir.
Q. A
calling friend?
A. Yes sir.
Q. One that
came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes sir.
Q. One that
she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes sir.
Q. On
excellent terms?
A. On good
terms.
Q. No lack
of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were
they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir,
never.
Q. She and
Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss
Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church
work at all.
Q. Miss Russell stayed with you three days after the Thursday?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Night
and day mostly?
A. I think
so.
Q. Slept in
the house Thursday night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did she
sleep in the house Friday night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you
remember whether that was at anybody's request?
A. I can't
tell you.
Q. And
Saturday night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did she
stay there Sunday night?
A. I don't
know. I think she did, but I am not sure.
Q. Do you
recall what the first thing you said was when Miss Lizzie was standing
by the stove with the dress?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What was
it?
A. I said,
"You might as well", or "Why don't you ?"-something like that. That is
what it meant. I can't tell you the exact words.
Q. Wasn't
the first thing said by anybody, "Lizzie, what are you going to do with
that dress?"
A. No sir, I don't remember it so.
Q. Do you
understand Miss Russell so to testify?
A. I think she did.
Q. Do you
remember whether that was so or not?
A. It
doesn't seem so to me. I don't remember it so.
Q. Why
doesn't it seem so to you, if I may ask you?
A. Why,
because, the first I knew about it, my sister spoke to me.
Q. That is what I thought you would say. Now, you don't recall that the first thing that you said to her, the first thing that was said by anybody was, "What are you going to do with that dress, Lizzie?"
A. No sir.
I don't remember saying it.
Q. Do you
remember that you did not say it?
A. I am sure I did not.
Q. Miss
Russell was in the room, was she not?
A. I don't
know. When I turned to hear what my sister had to say I saw Miss
Russell, but she wasn't in the room with her then. She was in the
dining room with the door open.
Q. The reason you don't think you said so was because you had previously spoken with your sister Lizzie about destroying the dress?
A. I don't
understand your question.
MR.
ROBINSON. Is that a question?
MR.
KNOWLTON. Yes.
MR.
ROBINSON. It don't sound like one.
MR.
KNOWLTON. It is a habit I have, to do that. I do not put on the "do
you." I am very glad to be corrected about it too.
Q. The
reason you think you didn't say so was because you had previously
spoken to her about destroying the dress?
A. Yes sir.
I had previously spoken about it. I don't think I had thought of the
dress all the time. I had spoken to her about it.
Q. Now,
isn't that the reason that you say you didn't say that, that argument?
A. The
reason that I say I didn't say so is because I didn't say so.
Q. You
swear that you didn't say so?
A. I swear that I didn't say it.
Q. Did you
just tell me that you didn't remember of saying it?
A. I did.
Q. Do you
mean to put it any stronger than that?
A. I think
I may truthfully.
Q. What has
refreshed your recollection since?
A. Nothing;
only thinking, I am sure I didn't.
Q. What
sort of figure was it in that dress?
A. You mean
shape?
Q. Yes.
A. Or color?
Q. Shape.
A. Well, I
don't know how to describe it to you. It was about an inch long by
about three quarters of an inch wide.
Q. Can't
you give me any better shape of it than that?
A. It was
pointed at the top and broader at the bottom than it was at the top.
Q. Sort of
triangular?
A. Well, perhaps so.
Q. And that
was a dark-blue figure?
A. I think
one part of it was black or very dark blue and the other part a very
light blue.
Q. That was
a Bedford cord?
A. Yes sir.
Q. It was a
cotton dress?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was the
figure printed on it?
A. I
suppose so.
Q. So that
it was a print?
A. Yes sir.
Q. A print
cotton dress of the style called Bedford cord is a proper description
of it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you
said it was dirty?
A. Very.
Q. What
sort of dirt was it on it?
A. Just as
any dress would get soiled; it was very light and touched the floor or
ground in walking.
Q. And had
she worn it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And the
last time she had worn it you said was some-what did you say?
A. I should
say four or six weeks before I went away, but I am not positive.
Q. But she
did wear it before that time?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was it a
lightweight dress?
A. Yes, I think you would call it so.
Q. She had worn it. When she wore it what time did she so wear it?
A. Only in
the morning.
Q. And had
she worn it quite a number of mornings?
A. When she
first had it she did, until it was badly soiled.
Q. After
the paint was on it?
A. She wore
it some after the paint was on.
Q. She got
the paint on, if I understand you, immediately after she got it made?
A. I think
within a week or two.
Q. Wasn't
it within a day or two? A. I can't tell you exactly how early it was.
Q. And
don't you recall that it was almost immediately?
A. It was very soon.
Q. Was it
while the dressmaker was there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long
was the dressmaker there?
A. I think
three weeks or a little over.
Q. Was it
in the early part of the dressmaker's being there?
A. I don't
remember whether the painting was commenced immediately or not.
Q. But
notwithstanding the paint she wore it mornings?
A. She wore
it some until the dress got soiled besides that.
Q. She
wasn't interrupted in the wearing of it on account of the paint alone?
A. Well, she was, excepting very early in the morning.
Q. Did you
see your sister burn the dress?
A. I did
not.
Q. Did you
remain in the room?
A. I did.
Q. Did you
see Miss Russell come back again the second time?
A. I don't
remember. I think she was wiping the dishes and came back and forth and
I didn't pay attention.
Q. Did you
hear Miss Russell say to her, "I wouldn't let anybody see me do that,
Lizzie"?
A. I did
not.
Q. Do you mean that you don't remember it or that it was not said?
A. I don't
say it was not said. I say that I didn't hear it.
Q. And did
you notice that for any reason your sister Lizzie stepped away after
something was said by Miss Russell?
A. I didn't
see my sister at all after she left the stove.
RE-DIRECT
Q. [By Mr.
Jennings] You remained in the kitchen yourself all the time washing
dishes?
A. I was.
Q. Then did
you go to the stove?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you
know where this waterproof of Miss Lizzie's was on the day of the
search?
A. Hanging in the clothes press that has been spoken of so often.
Q. Do you
know where it is now?
A. It is there now.
Q. Been
there ever since?
A. Every
day since.