Nicola Sacco, Sworn.

THE COURT.  Let me suggest, Mr. Sacco, to you, the same as I did to Mr. Vanzetti, if you do not understand any questions put to you either by Mr. Moore or by,--either in direct examination or by Mr. Katzmann in cross-examination, it is your right to say so and have the questions put so that you may understand each one and all.  You may proceed, Mr. Moore.
Q. [By Moore.] Mr. Sacco, state your name in full, please.
A. Nicola Sacco.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Toremaggione, Italy.
Q. What year were you born?
A. 1891.
Q. Your father, what business was he in there?
A. Business man of olive oil.
Q. Raising olives?
A. No, buy olive oil.
Q. How long did you go to school?
A. Seven to fourteen.
Q. And why did you leave school?
A. Well, my father was need very bad on our property,-vineyards.
Q. Needed working on the vineyards?
A. Yes.
Q. How many children were there in your family?
A. Seventeen.
Q. And after you quit school at fourteen, what did you do then?
A. I went to work in,--after fourteen I went to work with my father.
Q. After fourteen you went to work with your father?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you continue to work at the family place?
A. I continued to work until fourteen to sixteen.
Q. Then what happened, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, I did not like very much agriculture.
Q. You did not like farm work?
A. No.
Q. No.
A. No, so I went and learned mechanic.
Q. Where did you go to take up mechanical work?
A. In the same town.
Q. When did you leave Italy to come for the United States, what year?
A. 1917.
Q. What year did you leave Italy?
A. 1908.
Q. And how did you happen to come here?  What was the occasion for your coming here?  Who did you come with?
A. Well, my father got some friend here when he was young.  This friend, he baptize most of the people in the family, so my brother-who is Sabeno-he was in army three years and he served in the army about thirty-six months.
Q. In the Italian army?
A. Yes, so he came back.  My father's friend live in Milford and he liked very much to see my brother, so my brother when he came back from the army, he desired to come to this country, so I was crazy to come to this country because I was liked a free country, call a free country, I desire to come with him.
Q. So you two came together, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. How old were you at that time?
A. Seventeen years old.
Q. Do you know at what port you landed?  Where did you come into the United States, at what city?
A. Milford.
Q. No, I mean what—
A. Massachusetts.
Q. Where did you land in the United States, what harbor, what city did you come into when you came in on the boat?
A. In Boston,--White Star Line.
Q. Where did this friend of your father's live?
A. He is dead now, but the folks live in Milford yet.
Q. You and your brother went where upon your arrival here?
A. To Boston.
Q. You and your brother Sabeno, where did you go?
A. We got a steamboat to Naples to Boston the last of April.  We reached Boston about twelve,--no, the last of March.  We reach Boston at twelve of April, 12th of April, 1908.
Q. And then where did you go immediately on arrival here?
A. Start to Milford the same night.
Q. And you were what age it the time of your arrival in this country?  A. What years?
Q. What age were you, how old were you?
A. Seventeen years old.
Q. When you went to Milford, what kind of work did you first take up?
A. Well, my brother Sabeno, after next day--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE WITNESS.  All right.
Q. What kind of work did you take up?
A. I loaf a couple of weeks.  I had an idea to go in a shoe factory to learn a job, but that time in the shoe factory was very slack and I go to see if I could go get another job.  I was kind of sick.
Q. What kind of work did you take up first?  A. Water boy.
Q. In what character of work was that, construction work, do you mean?
A. Contractor work, sanitary for Milford.  Who done the work, the contractor was the Draper Company.
Q. How long did you follow that line of work?  A. About six months, six or seven months, anyway I am not certain.
Q. Then what did you do?  A. In the winter time, it was kind of cold, you know, so I decided to work in the factory.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.  The answer is not responsive.
Q. What did you do after you go through with this work as a water boy?
A. I got a job in Draper, in the foundry.
Q. At Milford?
A. Yes, sir.  No, well, five cent ride to Milford, to Draper to Hopedale.
Q. Hopedale?  A. Yes.
Q. Now, how long did you work in the foundry at Hopedale?
A. I should say about a year, pretty near, not certain, but pretty near.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. So I decided, my brother want to come back to the old country.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
Q. Not what your brother did, Mr. Sacco.  What you did.
A. I decided to learn a job, a trade, so I did.
Q. Where did you learn edge trimming?
A. Michael Kelly, 3-K.  He used to run the little factory over there at that time.  He used to do about eighty dozen a day.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. Were you paid to learn that trade?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After you had learned the trade, Mr. Sacco, what did you do then?
A. After three months, I got a job in Webster.
Q. Massachusetts?
A. Massachusetts, yes, sir.
Q. How long did you work there?
A. All winter; about six or seven months.
Q. And that was at edge trimming?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then what did you do?
A. A friend of mine wrote to me a special delivery.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
Q. Wait. What did you do, not what some one else do, but what did you do?
A. I left the job at Webster.  I took a job at Milford Shoe Company, Milford.
Q. Milford Shoe Company at Milford?
A. Yes.
Q. As an edge trimmer?
A. As an edge trimmer.
Q. When did you start in there as an edge trimmer?
A. You mean the year?
Q. Yes.
A. 1910.
Q. 1910?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you work it the Milford Shoe Company as an edge trimmer?
A. Until 1917.
Q. What month, if you know, when you left the Milford Shoe Company?
A. The last of March, before the registration.
Q. Well, now, assuming that registration was on June the 5th, 1917, how long before that date was it that you left the Milford Shoe Company?
A. Sometime, a week before.
Q. A week before.  Then, from 1910 until the last week in April--in May of 1917--during all of that period did you work for the Milford Shoe Company?
A. Yes, sir, right along.
Q. What did you do in June of 1917?
A. I left Milford.
Q. You left Milford?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you away from Milford?
A. I should say about three months and a half or four months.
Q. Were you outside of the state of Massachusetts during that period of time?
A. Outside of this country, the United States.
Q. What month, if you know, did you come back?
A. Sometime the last of September.
Q. The last of September, 1917?
A. 1917.
Q. What?
A. I should say August.
Q. The last of August of 1917?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you come back?
A. I call it September, anyway.
August,--September.
Q. Why did you come back?
A.. Well, I could not stay no more.  I leave my wife here and my boy.  I could not stay no more far away from them.
Q. You were married when?
A. 1912.
Q. You had a child at this time, did you, when you—
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How old was your boy ,it that time?
A. When I left Milford?
Q. No. When you came back from outside of the states.  How old is your boy now?  A. He is going on nine years.  He finished eight years the 10th of May, last May.
Q. When you returned here in the fall or summer of 1917, what did you do then?
A. I went straight to see my wife in Cambridge.
Q. Did you go to work then?
A. Yes, sir.  After a few days.
Q. Where did you go to work?
A. Cambridge, in a candy factory.  They used to make candy.
Q. And what name had you been using during this interval?
A. I left--
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.  What is the question?  If your Honor please, several intervals have been spoken of.
Q. What name had you been using since you left Milford in April, in May of 1917?
THE COURT.  Does it appear he used any other name than his own?
Q. Yes.  Had you, I am asking you?
A. Yes.  Nicola Mosmacotelli, my mother's second name.
Q. When did you take that name?
A. When I left Milford.
Q. How did you get that name?
A. Well, to not get in trouble by registration.
Q. Is it part of your family name?
A. My mother's second name.
Q. Your mother's maiden name?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever in your life up to this time used any name other than your own?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you came back to Cambridge did you then take and follow out using this name in the work you did it Cambridge?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is in the fall of 1917, is it?  What month?
A. 1917.  September.
Q. What was the next place you worked after leaving the candy company at Cambridge? A. I used to buy the Globe every morning, so I find a job over in East Boston, the Victoria Shoe Company, so I left there for a week or two.  Those women's shoe, I never trimmed on women's shoes before.  It was very hard for me to trim them, the heel was too high, so I couldn't make no more than two dollars a day.  I decided to leave the job and go pick and shovel be better, make more money if I couldn't find a job.
THE COURT.  Did he say how long he worked in the candy shop?
Q. How long did you work in the candy company?
A. I should say about three weeks.
Q. Then how long did you work in the company at East Boston?
A. I don't think I did work no more than seven or eight days.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. So one night--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. What was the next piece of work you did?  What company did you work for next?
A. Rice & Hutchins' shoe factory.
Q. What?
A. Rice & Hutchins' shoe factory, South Braintree.
Q. Rice & Hutchins' at South Braintree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what date was that?
A. I should say the last of October.
Q. Of nineteen hundred what?
A. 1917.
Q. Last of October of 1917?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what department, if you remember, did you work there?
A. I forget what they call the room.
Q. Was it your own line of work as edge trimmer?
A. Yes, the same line.
Q. Were you doing edge trimming?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you did not get a job as edge trimmer with Rice & Hutchins?
A. No, because the boss--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. You did not?
A. No.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Seven or eight days, no more.
Q. Why did you leave?
A. Because that was not my job.  I was to get only $13 a week.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. I go straight to Haverhill.
Q. Now, when did you go to work for Mr. Kelley at the 3-K shoe at Stoughton?
A. It began in November of 1918.
Q. In November of 1918?
A. Yes, sir.  One week before the armistice.
Q. And where were you working at the time that you went to work for the 3-K?
A. I was working, E. Taylor Shoe Company in Brockton.
Q. What were the conditions?  How did you happen to go over to the 3-K?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
MR. MOORE.  I won't press it, if your Honor please.  I don't care for it particularly.
THE COURT.  It appears that he did.  That is all.
Q. During the period after leaving Rice & Hutchins, and the time you went to work f or the 3-K, had you worked f or a number of other companies?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. For approximately how many, if you know?
A. In Brockton.  Fred Field.
Q. Oh, no, you did not get my question.  How many different companies had you worked for during the period after leaving Rice & Hutchins and going to Milford or going to the 3-K?
A. I see.  I should say about six.
Q. And when you went to work in November, of 1918, for the 3-K-
A. Excuse me, Mr. Moore, because I changed factories but I have been working pick and shovel at some other places, so that would be more in number, I mean.
MR. KATZMANN.  I don't get the answer.
THE WITNESS.  I have been carrying iron in South Boston, too.
Q. Were you working during all the time?
A. All the time.
Q. Then you went to work for Mr. Kelley at the 3-K, in November?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you work all the time from that through to the time of your, --of May the 1st of 1920?
A. No. I was sick sometimes.
Q. When, if you remember?
A. 1.919, three weeks before Christmas, sick about three or four weeks, anyway.
Q. You were sick for some three or four weeks?
A. Three weeks, sure.
Q. In December of 1919?
A. Yes.
Q. Aside from that, were you working during the entire period of time that you were with Mr. Kelley?
A. I did not get that.
Q. Aside from,--is this the only long vacation or long absence from the factory?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, are your father and mother living?
A. My father is living.  My other died.
Q. Had you any communications from your,--when did your mother die?
A. 7th of March, 1990.
Q. Was her illness a lingering illness or a sudden one?
A. I did not get you.
Q. Was she sick for a long period of time?
A. Yes.  Heart trouble, heartsick, heart trouble.
Q. Had you had various letters from your people dealing with the matter of the sickness in the family?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, where were you on April 15th, Mr. Sacco?
A. I was in Boston.
Q. What hour that day?  Or, first, I will ask you what you went to Boston for?
A. To get my passport.
Q. Now, at any previous time before that time, had you made any effort to get a passport?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long before?
A. Sometime in the middle of March, I should say the middle or last of March.
MR. KATZMANN.  I don't get it.
THE WITNESS.  I should say the middle or last of March.
Q. Did you at that time,-what occurred, did you make an application for a passport?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.  I object.  Too leading.
Q. Did you make an application for a passport?
A. I went to see why I could not get my passport, what way I could get it.  You know, I did not know what way I could get information.
Q. Now, on April, 15th, what did you go into Boston for?
A. To get my passport.
Q. What time did you leave Stoughton that day?
A. I leave Stoughton on the 8.56 train.
Q. Are you absolutely sure of that hour or about that hour or what?
A. I am sure.
Q. And went into Boston?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where did you go on arrival in Boston?
A. I left the South Station.  I went in the North End.  I went buy a paper, La Notizia.
Q. You went to the North End?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get a paper?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get it?
A. Prince Street.
Q. Prince Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Near where?
A. Between Hanover and Prince, between Hanover and North Square.  I suppose Hanover like that, Prince cross like that, and North Square right-I back,-sort of finish in North Square, passed through Hanover.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Oh, I stayed over there about fifteen minutes, I guess.  I read a little.  So then I take a walk, and I went on Hanover Street.
Q. What else did you do that forenoon?
MR. KATZMANN.  Mr. Moore, we would like to hear what this witness is saying.
MR. MOORE. [To the witness.] Speak up so that everybody can hear clearly what you say.
MR. KATZMANN.  You asked him how long he remained after buying the paper.
THE WITNESS.  About fifteen minutes.  I don't know exactly.
Q. Suppose you speak as though you were talking to me.
A. All right.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I turned a corner on Hanover Street.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I started to walk, and I met a friend.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. Sure.
Q. A. Monello,--Angelo Monello.
Q. And did you have a talk with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. We walked until Washington Street, and I go back again, so I stopped in the stores and been looking at a straw hat, some suits,--a price, you know.  Then I go back.  I have my mind to go in the afternoon and get my passport.  I say probably I go to get my dinner first, so I have a little time and I go there, so I went over to Boni's restaurant.
Q. And who did you see there?
A. I met Mr.-Professor Guadenagi.
Q. Who else, if any one?
A. That is the first one I met, before I go into the restaurant.
MR. KATZMANN.  Mr. Moore, we cannot hear this witness.
MR. MOORE.  Keep your voice up, Mr. Sacco.
Q. Who did you meet outside of the restaurant?
A. Professor Guadenagi.
Q. Any one else after going in?
THE COURT.  How do you spell that name, please?
THE WITNESS.  It is so hard.  I could write it.
Q. Now, do you remember who else you met there, if any one?
A. Yes.  Mr. Williams.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Mr. Bosco.
Q. Is there any one else?  Well, how long were you in the restaurant?
A. I should say about an hour and fifteen minutes,--fifteen or twenty minutes.
Q. Do you know about what time you left there?
A. Yes.
Q. And then where did you go?  At what hour did you leave there?
A. Twenty minutes past one; twenty minutes past one.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I went right straight to the consul’s,--Italian consul.
Q. About what hour, if you know, Mr. Sacco, did you get to the Italian consul?
A. It was about two o'clock.
Q. And what occurred on your going into the consulate?  Who did you talk with there and what happened?
A. I went in and meet in the office, and I got near the,--when I went in the office there is a bank just like this [indicating).  I went in and a man came around.
Q. You went up to the railing?
A. Yes.
Q. And then a gentleman the other side came up to his side of the railing?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you talked together?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what did you say and what did he say?
A. I said, "I like to get my passport for my whole family." He asked me,--he said, "You bring the picture?" I said, "Yes," so I gave it to him, see, a big picture.  He says, "Well, I am sorry.  This picture is too big." "Well," I says, "can you cut, and make him small?" "No," he said, "the picture we cannot use, because it goes too big." I says, "Can you cut?" He says, "No, no use, because got to make a photograph just for the purpose for the passport, small, very small,"--so I did.
Q. Now, I call your attention to the photograph marked "B" attached to the depositions in this case.
MR. MOORE.  You gentlemen have seen this, I believe.
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.
Q. Is that a duplicate of the photograph that you showed the gentleman there that day?  A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE. [Showing picture to the jury.] I imagine you gentlemen have all seen this.
Q. How long were you in the consulate, to your best recollection?
A. Ten or fifteen minutes, I should say, about ten minutes.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I go back to buy my stuff, groceries, so before I got my groceries, I went to get coffee in a coffee store in the North End near the Boni restaurant, near the Boni restaurant.
Q. About what time did you get to the cafe, or coffee house?
A. It was a little before three o'clock.
Q. How long were you in there, if you remember?
A. I don't remember certain what time I remained there.
Q. About?
A. About twenty minutes,--twenty.
Q. Twenty minutes.  And did you see any one while you were there?
A.  Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Professor Guadenagi.
Q. Any one else, if you know?
A. Yes.  Professor Dentamore.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. I went to buy grocery.
Q. Do you remember where?
A. Yes.  I do not remember the name of the store, but I remember the street, the same street in the North End, about fifteen minutes,--about fifty steps from, well, I should say about one hundred steps from the cafe.
Q. From the cafe?
A. Yes.
Q. And on what street, on the North Square there?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
A. North End.
MR. KATZMANN.  Wait a minute.
THE COURT.  Leading.
Q. What street was it on?
A. North End.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I should say a half hour, pretty near.
Q. Was there anything else you did?
A. I am not sure, but twenty or twenty-five minutes, anyway.
Q. What did you do from there?  Where did you go?
A. Home.
Q. You mean to Stoughton?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know about what hour you left for Stoughton that night, that afternoon?
A. I should say about twelve minutes past four.
Q. And you went immediately back to Stoughton and then to your home?
A. Yes.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  Leading.
Q. What did you do on arrival at Stoughton?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  I object.
Q. Did you take a train to Stoughton?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.  What did you do when you got there?
A. I went and buy elixir for physic.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I went home, walking home.
Q. Do you know about what time you got there?
A. Around six o’clock, I should say.  I don't remember exactly, but around six o’clock, anyway.
Q. Now, that afternoon or that day in Boston, do you remember any other particular thing or special thing that occurred during this morning or afternoon?
A. In the afternoon, yes.
Q. What?
A. I met Afa and pay him $15 for bill.
Q. Are you sure about any of these spellings, or are you just spelling by your ear?
A. I know him sure.  I think Afa is the way you spell it.  I don't know for sure.
Q. At any time, Mr. Sacco, on April 15, 1920, were you at South Braintree, Massachusetts?
A. No, sir.  What do you mean, working?
Q. Doing anything?
A. Any day?
Q. No. Were you at any time, on April 15, 1920, at South Braintree?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have heard certain testimony placing you in the railroad station at South Braintree during the hours about noon hour of that day?
A. Never.
Q. Is that statement false or true?
A. True.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. Were you in that station at any time that day?
A. South Braintree station?  No, sir.
Q. You have also heard certain testimony referring to you as being at or near the corner of Pearl and Hancock Street sometime around about the noon hour of that day leaning up against a window there.  At any time, either at that hour or any other hour--
A. Never.
Q. --on April 15th, were you in South Braintree?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, how long have you known Mr. Vanzetti?
A. I should say about three years before I got arrested.
Q. About two years before you were arrested?
A. Three years, three years before I got arrested.
Q. Three years before you got arrested?
A. Because no personality but I know the name about four years, pretty near.
Q. Personally, you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see Mr. Vanzetti at any time on or about April 15, 1920?
A. No, sir.
Q. When was the first time that you saw him during anywhere near that period of time?  A. The 25th of April.
Q. The 25th of April, 1.920?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the occasion of your meeting him at that time?
A. Naturalization Club in Maverick Square, East Boston.
Q. In what time of day was this meeting?  A. Well, I went in there
in that hall in the afternoon.
Q. And did you know that Mr. Vanzetti was going to be there?
A. No, I never,-was not sure he would be there.
Q. What was the -occasion for your being there?  Why did you go, for what purpose?
MR. KATZMANN.  How is that competent, if your Honor please?
THE COURT.  That is not involved in the day in question is it?
MR. MOORE.  No, your Honor.  In fact, the only reason is I am trying to find out the reason for being there.  That is all.  I have no intention of going into this in any detail.  Just simply to explain the
THE COURT.  Suppose there was some meeting there in Boston in some hall, and he attended there.  He attended that meeting and while there he met the defendant Vanzetti.
Q. What was this meeting, Mr. Sacco?
A. It was a meeting because we had been sending money to New York, and we don't know who is the treasurer.  We don't know if he is a spy or a friend to us.  We do not know who he is.  I been sending twenty-five,--$21 once.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, if your Honor please, I ask that be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  I will agree that all he personally did shall be stricken.
The only--
THE COURT.  What has that got to do with this matter at the present time, anyhow?  It is an entirely different situation
THE COURT. --with this defendant at the present time.  For all I know, we may never reach it.
Q. Who were present there, if you know?
A. Yes.
Q. How many persons were there?
A. I should say about fifteen.  Probably more, but I cannot say exactly how many there was.
Q. Do you remember any of them?
A. 'The names?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.  Piedro---
THE COURT. [To the stenographer.] After you get the spelling of these names, if you will repeat the spelling.
THE WITNESS.  Gandnfo.
Q. Do you know how that name is pronounced?  A. [Witness pronounces name.]
Q. Do you remember any other persons there besides Vanzetti and Gandnfo?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else?
A. Oreste Bianci, Carlos Forte, Vincent Colorarossi.
Q. Any other names that occur to you now?  If not, we will pass on.  I am not particularly anxious.  You say twelve or fifteen people?
A. Yes.  There is some other names.  F. Carabelli.
Q. After your discussion there that evening, Mr. Sacco, what was the decision reached, if you know?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  What has this got to do with this case, a meeting in Boston of fifteen men?
MR. MOORE.  We propose to lay the foundation here, your Honor, of the subsequent acts-
THE COURT.  I did not get that.
MR. MOORE. -of the defendant.
THE COURT.  What did you say?
MR. MOORE.  Laying a foundation for the explanation of the subsequent acts of the defendant.
THE COURT.  I think we better come to the subsequent acts first.
MR. MOORE.  Well
THE COURT.  Because there is nothing now before me with reference to the subsequent acts.  You should proceed the same as counsel did with the defendant Vanzetti.
MR. MOORE.  Well, that is the attempt, to follow that same line, your Honor.
THE COURT.  Pardon me, this is not.
MR. MOORE.  Do I understand your Honor sustains the objection to the question?
THE COURT.  At the present time I cannot see how it is competent.
MR. MOORE.  I will state it is competent upon this ground: the defendant offers to prove at this time that upon April 25th a discussion was had with reference to what was to be done on behalf of one Salsedo and one Elia in New York; that in furtherance of that discussion there, it was agreed to send Mr. Vanzetti to New York; that Mr. Vanzetti went; that in New York he secured certain information relative to the danger, as they conceived it--
THE COURT.  Did this defendant go?
MR. MOORE.  No, your Honor, but this defendant participated in this discussion of April 25th.
THE COURT.  Until we come to the place where, in my judgment, it is competent, I will exclude it.
MR. MOORE.  The only possible reason is that in due order of procedure of proof the history of these events.
THE COURT.  The order of proof would be when the time comes that the witness says that those things had some operative effect upon his mind in causing him to do what he did do.  Up to that time it is purely hearsay.  It is not relevant to any issue here involved, so far as what happens on April 15th.  It may have had some operative effect upon his mind.  It may have influenced him in doing what he did do, but until he says so it is incompetent and purely hearsay.
MR. MOORE.  As to what he did on May 5th, your Honor.
THE COURT.  I will exclude it at the present time.
Q. Did you attend another meeting at a later date, Mr. Sacco?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where at?
A. The 2nd of May, the same place.
Q. The same place?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember who was present then?
A. Yes.
Q. How many people?
A. Well, Mr. Moore, I can't say how many people there are because there is a different group all together.  They got two pool room on the other side.  They go and come in, they go back again.  Can't tell how many there are.
Q. You mean this place is in the nature of a public club?  Is that what you mean?
A. Yes.  They play.  A different club in one hall.
Q. Men coming and going into the rooms most all the time?
A. Yes, they playing over there, they smoke and they walk, and you can't exactly say how many there were.  Sometimes fifty, but you can't know it.
Q. On the meeting of May 2d, was Mr. Vanzetti present?
A. Sure.
Q. Did you hear him at that time make any statement of where he had been and what he had done, since you last saw him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  Excluded.  Mr. Vanzetti was allowed to testify as to what certain things had an operative effect upon his mind.  In other words, with reference to the automobile trip, why he went that night to the automobile, why he later intended to go to Plymouth, why he told stories that were not true to the officers.  He gave us his reason why he did those things.  That I allowed.  In my judgment it was competent.  We have not reached that state with this witness yet.  It does not appear here that he ever told any stories that were not true.  It does not appear that he said that he was on this automobile trip.  It does not appear that he had that object in view at all that Vanzetti said he had, and until it does so appear I cannot admit the testimony because it is purely hearsay; but if a person acts on something which may be hearsay, he has a right to state what that was that influenced him and had an operative effect upon his mind.  That is the reason why I admitted it in Vanzetti's case.  This witness has not reached that state yet.
Q. Mr. Sacco, had you seen Mr. Vanzetti between April 25th and May 2d?
A. Yes.
Q. You had seen him between those dates?
A. No.
Q. You had not seen him?
A. No, no.
Q. Did you see him at any place other than the meeting of the night of May 2nd?  Did you see him at any other time that day except at the meeting at Maverick Hall?
A. No, sir.
Q. When did you see him again?
A. May 3d.
Q. Where at?
A. Over to my house.
Q. What hour?
A. I was in the factory all the morning.  I came back from the factory about twelve o'clock, so he was already over to the house.
Q. What was the agreement or decision reached on the night of May 2nd with reference to what you and Vanzetti would do, and others?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  How is that anything more than self-serving?
MR. MOORE.  Your Honor, the Government put in proof as to what the defendant was doing on the night of May 5th.  Now, in order, to adequately explain that conduct of the night of May 5th, the preceding conditions must be explained.
THE COURT.  You asked what the final decision was.
MR. MOORE.  What is that, your Honor?
THE COURT.  You asked what the final decision was.
MR. MOORE.  Your Honor has excluded the intervening steps.  If we are excluded from the intervening steps and excluded from the final.
THE COURT.  Tell me what you want to show by this conversation?  Perhaps the Commonwealth will admit it.
MR. MOORE.  In the first instance I ask leave to have Sacco state what Vanzetti had said upon the return from New York on May 2d.
THE COURT.  What do you expect that the answer will be to that question ?
MR. MOORE.  That report in the first instance upon the status of Salsedo and Elia matter.  In the second instance, that the reports were
THE COURT.  At the present time I will exclude that.
MR. MOORE.  You mean the first statement, or the one I am about to make.
THE COURT.  The first statement.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Now, the next.
MR. MOORE.  That Mr. Vanzetti stated, in substance, that he had received information in New York and that in connection with the so-called "Mayday" difficulties, that there was a danger of the arrest of a number of persons of the same general type of Social opinions as themselves, and that literature which they had in their possession should be destroyed, gotten rid of, hidden, taken care of in some way that they might deem most advisable after discussion and consideration.
THE COURT.  Suppose those things had no operative effect upon his mind, how is it anything but hearsay testimony?
MR. MOORE.  Suppose they had no
THE COURT.  Yes.
MR. MOORE.  Well, it is to be the question for the jury to decide whether or not it had.
THE COURT.  It is for you to wait until you get there before that evidence is admitted. In other words, there is no evidence at all from the witness-and we are to be governed by what he says-as to whether it had any operative effect or not upon his mind in causing him to do what he did or which restrained him from doing certain things.  It is for him to say.
MR. MOORE.  Well, it is to be presumed, your Honor, that counsel in offering testimony offer it in good faith and with the belief firmly fixed in their mind that there is a reason for it.  Now, if your Honor demands, I will plunge immediately into May 5th and work backward.  I would rather start at the bottom and work up.
THE COURT.  I think that you should show by the witness himself the reasons why he did what lie did, the reasons that actuated him in doing what he did, the things that operated upon his mind in causing him to do what he did.  He is the one to testify as to that.  Nobody else can, and he must first testify that it did have some operative effect upon his mind.  There is no such testimony at the present time.
Q. Mr. Sacco, in your conduct, was your conduct of May 5th, what you were doing on the night of May the 5th, based upon information that you had received during the preceding week?
MR. KATZMANN.  To that question I object.
THE COURT.  Let me make a suggestion.  The same as Mr. McAnarney did, take what the witness did on the various dates; and if he went up to the Johnson house, and all about it, and going wherever he intended to go after that.  Prove everything that he did do.  Then ask him, if you desire.
MR. -MOORE.  I will, with all due respect to the Court.  May I ask whether your Honor is now ruling that this question that is now pending is objectionable?
THE COURT.  At the present time it seems to me it is objectionable.
MR. MOORE.  Then, with due respect to the Court, I ask leave to reserve an exception, and will then follow the Court's suggestion.
THE COURT.  Very well.
Q. Mr. Sacco, on the night of the day of May 5th, who was present in your home that night?
A. You mean in the night or in the morning.
Q. Well, during the day of May 5th?
A. Me and Vanzetti in the morning, and all day.
Q. He was there all that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had he been there any preceding day that week other than May 5th?
A. The day before.
Q. He came there on the 3d of May?
A. Yes.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT. reading.
MR. MOORE.  The 3d of May.
Q. Was he there all day the 3d of May?
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  I object.  It is leading; and in the -next place, it is a misstatement of what the witness said.  It is not May 3d.  It is May 4th.  That is the day before May 5th, and not May 3d, and he has not said he was there.  I think my brother should not lead him.
Q. Mr. Sacco, was Mr. Vanzetti at your home on May 3d?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What hour did he come there?
A. I wasn't home that day, but I think he got home before twelve.
Q. Where was he when you got there?
A. Oh, the house.
Q. How long did he remain at your house?
A. Until May 5th.
Q. Were you and he home all day the remainder of May 3d from the time you got there from work, the balance of that day?
A. In the afternoon, yes.
Q. Where were you on May 4th?
A. I went in Boston.
Q. What for?
A. To get my passports.
Q. Did you obtain them?  Did you get your passport?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you left your home was Mr. Vanzetti there or not?
A. Sure, he was home.
Q. Was he there when you returned or not?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any one else in your house that day?  A. May 4th?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir, except Vanzetti and my wife.
Q. When you came home from Boston, how did you come that day?
A. By train.
Q. Where did you go, direct to Stoughton?
A. No. When I go to Boston I got a train.  When I come back I went the Elevated.
Q. Where did you go when you came back on the Elevated?
A. When I came back on the Elevated, I went to see Orcciani.
Q. Where at?
A. At Hyde Park, I think, between Hyde Park and Readville.
Q. Did you see him?
A. Yes.  He was come down to the work.  I met him on the road.
Q. Where on the road did you meet him, if you know?
A. They call it River Street, I think so.
Q. What then happened?  What did you then do when you met him?
A. Well, I told him—
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, one moment.
Q. Not what you told him, but what did you do?
A. I showed him my passport.
Q. Then what did you do?  A. I ask-
MR. KATZMANN. One moment.  I object.
Q. Not what you asked.  What did you do?  Where did you go?
A. In his house.
Q. Where?
A. With me to his house.
Q. To his house?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I should say pretty near an hour.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. Over to my house.
Q. Do you remember approximately or about what hour you got home?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time?
A. Pretty near seven o'clock.
Q. Who was with you?
A. Orcciani.
Q. How did you come there?
A. On a motorcycle.
Q. Was it at that time that you introduced Mr. Kelley to Mr. Orcciani, as has been referred to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what occurred that evening in your home, if anything?  Was Orcciani there? A. Sure.
Q. When did you next see him?  Was any one else there that day, except Orcciani and yourself?
A. And Vanzetti.
Q. And Vanzetti.  Is that all?
A. That is all.
THE COURT. We will take our afternoon recess now.
[Short recess.]
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, going back for the minute, when did you quit work for Mr. Kelley, the 3-K Shoe Company?
A. The 1st of May.
Q. The 1st of May?  A. Yes, I worked the 1st of May half a day.  The shop worked a half day on Saturday.
Q. Were you over there at the factory on May 3d?
A. Yes, in the morning.
Q. What doing?
A. Well, I ain't sure if he had a man in the shop already.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
Q. Were you over there that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do any work there that day?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long were you there?  About what hour did you leave?
A. I remained all morning in the factory to speak with friends.  I took my tools, my overalls, my jumper.  I went home about twelve o'clock and remained.
Q. Now, on May 5th, were you home all of that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was present at your house?
A. Mr. Vanzetti.
Q. Did any one else come in later?
A. Yes.
Q. If so, when, what hour?
A. I should say about half past four.
Q. Half past four that afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Orcciani and Boda.
Q. How long had you known Mr. Orcciani?
A. I know Orcciani for seven years, seven years anyway.
Q. Where had you met him, if you know?
A. Milford.
Q. He lived there when you lived there?
A. Yes.
Q. Where had you last seen Orcciani previous to May 5th, or May 4th, I should say?  You saw him on May 5th, you already stated.  You saw him on the day before, May 4th.  Now, when before did that date had you seen him?
A. May 2d.
Q. Where at?
A. In East Boston, in the hall.
Q. What doing, or, what was he there for, if you know?
A. I do not know what he was over there for.
Q. Where did you see him at East Boston on May 2d?
A. Yes, I saw him in the hall.  I spoke with him.
Q. About what?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  Ask him if he had some conversation about some subject.
MR. MOORE.  I have to go into that later, in view of your Honor's ruling.  The subject matter of that was pertinent to subsequent developments.
Q. On the evening or afternoon of May 5th or when you say that Boda was there--
A. Yes.
Q. That is Michael Boda that has been referred to.  How long had you known him?
A. I should say about three years before I got arrested.
Q. Where had you met him, if you know?
A. I think I did meet him the first time in Boston, on Richmond Street.  They used to have a Socialist hall once before the war.  That is where I met.  Some friends make me shake hands with him.  I guess that is the first time I suppose I met him there.
Q. When had you seen Boda before this date of May 5th when he came to your house?  A. Before?
Q. Yes.
A. May 5th?
Q. How long had it been since you had seen him personally?
A. I think I saw him to a picnic,--Brockton picnic, if I don't make no mistake.I am not sure, but I think I did see him.
Q. When was that?
A. I think in the fall.  I don't remember exactly,--sometime in the fall, anyway.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1919.
Q. Now, on the afternoon or evening of May 5th, what was the occasion, if you know, for Orcciani and Boda being at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it?
A. We are to go and get the automobile.
Q. What?
A. To get the automobile, to get the automobile.
Q. To get whose automobile?
A. Boda's automobile.
Q. Had you ever seen this automobile before, or did you see it that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen it?
A. No.
Q. What did you want the automobile for, if you know?
A. Sure.
Q. What for?  What was the purpose?
A. Well, we are to get the books.
Q. What?
A. The prints of those out of the houses of the friends.
MR. KATZMANN.  Louder, please.
THE WITNESS.  We decided in the meeting in Boston to get those books and papers, because in New York there was somebody said they were trying to arrest all the Socialists and the Radicals and we were afraid to get all the people arrested, so we were advised by some friends and we find out and Vanzetti take the responsibility to go over to the friends to get the books out and get in no trouble.  The literature, I mean, the Socialist literature.
Q. What hour did you leave Your house?
A. May 5th? Twenty minutes past seven.
Q.  Had you had dinner at the house before you left?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you go?  Where did you go first?
A. By car.
Q. Where to?
A. To Brockton.
Q. Who?
A. Me and Vanzetti.
Q.  How did Orcciani and Boda go, if you know?
A. I think they went on the motorcycle, but they went afterwards, I suppose.
Q. That was the understanding, at any rate?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you and Vanzetti go?  What did you do?
A. We took a car in front of my house.  The car go by twenty past the hour, or quarter, well, twenty minutes past, twenty minutes of, so we got the car twenty minutes past seven.  We rode to Brockton.  On a car we have conversation, me and him.  We talk about preparing a meeting, a speech at Brockton, because I have been writing to Vanzetti.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE WITNESS.  So I told Vanzetti
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask it be stricken out.
THE WITNESS.  So I told Vanzetti
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  When he objects you must wait.
MR. MOORE.  Well, what?
THE COURT.  Do you consent to that being stricken out?
MR. MOORE.  I had in mind, your Honor, what this man said, or what this man did, as part of the-
THE COURT.  Well, they are two things, what a man said and what he did.  Mr. Katzmann, as I got it, objected to the conversation as hearsay.
What he did--
MR. MOORE.  I am not at all insistent upon the conversation.  As a matter of fact, I do not care whether it goes in or not.  I won't insist on it.
THE COURT.  What he did is perfectly competent.  The conversation may be stricken out.  What he did may remain.
Q. What did you do on arrival at Brockton?
 A. We got off the car at Brockton on Main Street, to get the Bridgewater car.
Q. What did you do in Brockton?
A. So we lost the car.
Q. What?
A. We lost the car for Bridgewater.  Probably we were too late by a couple of minutes late.
Q. Then what did you do while you waited?
A. We walked to School Street in Brockton and Vanzetti want to buy some cigars.  He went in Italian stores,-a fruit store.  He buy a couple of cigars there, so then we left there after a minute.  We went in the lunch cart.  We took coffee.  After coffee, we went out.  We take a walk.
Q. Now, did you do anything?
THE COURT.  You take what, a walk?
THE WITNESS.  A walk.
Q. Go ahead.
A. Then we lost the car, and I asked a man who was standing over there if he could give information of the electric car, so I asked, I says--
Q. What did you do in the cigar store?
A. When we took in the lunch cart, I mean the coffee, Vanzetti was write, copying, was write a manifest, a bill, handbill for the conference.
Q. What kind of handbill, for what purpose?
A. For the conference.
Q. What do you mean by a "conference," Mr. Sacco?
A. Call the people to hear a conference.
Q. You mean a meeting?
A. A meeting, yes.
Q. To be held when?
A. I do not remember the day exactly, but I know the hall was already hired by a friend from Brockton.  It was Clark Hall.  I do not know if it was on the 9th or 10th.  I forget.
Q. What day of the week was it to be?
A. I think it was on Sunday, if I don't be mistaken.
Q. In Brockton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what location that hall is?
A. Yes, I have been there before.
Q. Where is it?
A. I do not know the name of the street, but I know Clark Hall very well.
Q. After Vanzetti had written this handbill, what was done then?
A. Well, after that go out of the lunch cart.  We took a walk by Bridgewater, going to Bridgewater.
Q. What became of the handbill?  What was done with the handbill?
A. It was still corrected.
Q. Who had the handbill?
A. When he finished, I took and put in my pocket.
Q. Why did you take it?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  He may answer.
A. Because I was responsible for getting that printed.  I took the responsibility of that printing.
Q. You mean,--what do you mean by that?
A. Take the bill and put it, well, go to some printer.
Q. You would have it printed.  Is that what you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where did you go on the street car?  You took a car to Bridgewater, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get off that car?
A. We got off at Elm Square.
Q. How do you know you got off at Elm Square?
A. Well, Mr. Moore, I do not know if T. did.  I ask anyway a man in the car, but I am sure after I got off the car I saw the sign over there on the post.  I do not know whether it is on the right side or the left side, but there was, say, "Elm Square," and some other road for-I don't know where they call the other for Bridgewater, but I sure remember I read Elm Square.
Q. When you got off the car, where did you go?
A. We remained there for a couple of minutes, three or four minutes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. We did walking, up the car track, going to Bridgewater.
Q. Had you been down there at that point before?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you got off the car, which direction did you go, do you know, first?
A. To Bridgewater the first time we stopped there.
Q. Well, why did you go that way?  A. Well, we thought we could meet the friends by that road.
Q. Then how far did you go?
 A. We walked, I should say, about ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I think we reach the Square over there, some Square there.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Then we go back again.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Elm Square again.
Q. What did you do on reaching Elm Square again?
A. If I am not sure we remained there for a couple of minutes again, but I think we did.  I think Vanzetti done something or other.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I sit down, I wait for him.  We go by Brockton.  We did not see anybody there.  We were surprised.  What is the way to go?  Then we mind to go by Brockton.
Q. How far did you go that way?
A. I should say we five or seven minutes, ten, I don't know.
Q. Then what happened?
A. I saw the light.
Q. Of what?
A. Motorcycle.
Q. What did you do when you saw the lights of the motorcycle?
A. Well, we passed the bridge.  I went in near the car to see who it was, to find out.
Q. To see what?
A. Who is near the car.  I crossed the road.  I went near the car to find out who it was standing near the car, so I see Orcciani and I speak with him.  I said--
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE WITNESS.  "Boda get the car?"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT. [To Mr. Moore.] Do you claim that is competent?
MR. MOORE.  Yes.  It is already in the record as to what conversation was had there.
THE COURT.  What say?
MR. MOORE.  There is already testimony, your Honor, as to what conversation was had there.
THE COURT.  I know, but that was because it was brought out in cross-examination, was it not?
MR. MOORE.  Partly.  Not entirely, I think, your Honor.
THE COURT.  What part?
MR. MOORE.  Are you referring now to our cross-examination of the Johnsons?
THE COURT.  Your cross-examination of Mr. Johnson.  Any evidence that you have which tends to contradict either of the witnesses, which, of course, would include Vanzetti, you may have a right to do that, but why isn't the rest of it hearsay and self-serving statements?
MR. MOORE.  Any statement or anything that occurred there is introduced by the Government under the theory that what did take place is indicative of a subsequent action, is indicative of consciousness of guilt.  Now, in order to explain what did take place there and subsequent acts and to answer the theory of consciousness of guilt, I take it that the entire transaction is open and we may rebut the presumption of consciousness of guilt by showing what did actually take place.
THE COURT.  On that theory, perhaps the District Attorney will agree, because it is on that theory you open up all the conversation that took place which will, of course, give the Johnsons a right to testify as to what each party said who was there.  In other words, do you not claim with the conversation of one who was there, at least one of the four men, that conversation with all may be equally competent?
MR. MOORE.  The conversation has already been admitted, your Honor, between Johnson and Boda on the theory it was overheard or in the presence of the remaining two men.
THE COURT.  I do not remember any conversation that went in with Boda, excepting that conversation that was brought out by the result of a cross-examination of Mr. Johnson, and as I recall that, that was a question as to, in substance, what was said,-that as the result of what was said between Mr. Johnson and Boda in regard to the number plate the automobile was not taken.  I think that was admitted on the theory of the conversation brought out by counsel for the defendant.  If they desire to have all the conversation that took place that night at that time, have you any objection, Mr. District Attorney?
MR. KATZMANN.  Not if we have it all, your Honor.
THE COURT.  It seems to me if we have any part of the conversation, we should have all.
MR. MOORE.  I might suggest to your Honor that just before the adjournment at the noon hour there was a question raised on some conversation that was sought to be introduced through Mr. Johnson.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  May I suggest that was two or three weeks later.  That was not this occasion.  Some other time than this.
MR. KATZMANN.  It was not two or three weeks.  I sought to introduce evidence of what Mike Boda said to Mr. Johnson on Friday, April 30th.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  It was some other time than this time.
MR. KATZMANN.  If we are going to have the conversation, I submit we have it all.
THE COURT.  If, of course, he opened up something on May 5th, you would have aright only to have all the rest of the conversation that took place on May 5th.
MR. MOORE.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  That would not give you a right to open up what was said on some other separate and distinct date and occasion, if that be true, even though Mr. Katzmann may have opened up a conversation on April 30th.
MR. KATZMANN.  No, I was not permitted to, if your Honor please.  I asked the question and it was objected to.
THE COURT.  That is my recollection.
MR. KATZMANN.  And ruled out.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I was simply informing Mr. Moore as to what took place at the bench, to wit, that that conversation was,--I thought he was laboring under a wrong impression.
MR. MOORE.  The conversation he attempted to put in this morning was ruled out.
THE COURT. That is my recollection.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
Q. Mr. Sacco, You came up to see who was driving that motorcycle.  Is that your statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did you see standing at the car?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  One moment.  I object to the form of the question.
THE COURT.  It is the same thing.  It does not appear he saw, perhaps, anybody
 .  Did you see anybody there at the car?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Tell the jury whom you saw.  THE WITNESS.  Orcciani.
Q. Who else did you see?
A. I saw Boda near the house, the little house.
Q. Who was with you?
A. Vanzetti.
Q. What did you do there?
A. We remained over there and talked.
Q. Who did you talk with?
A. With Orcciani.
Q. You and Vanzetti?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened after that or while you were there?
A. Between us we have a conversation, me and Vanzetti with Orcciani.  I could see by the door,--Mike Boda was standing on the door, outside.  But I did not see, I could not recognize the other man who was talking.  I could see.  He could not get no car because he have no number, no number plates, so after a little while Boda came back, because Orcciani told us, he says, “I don't know."
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  One moment.
THE WITNESS.  He came back.  He told us he could not get no car because he had no number plates.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object, if your Honor please.
MR. MOORE.  It has already been stated.
THE COURT.  That may be stricken out.
Q. What happened next?
A. So he said, "Better follow us, go home."
MR. KATZMANN.  I object.
THE COURT.  That question, Mr. Sacco, referred to what was done and not to what was said.  What was done
THE WITNESS.  Then we go home.
THE COURT.  That is responsive.
Q. Did you see any one other than Mr. Vanzetti, Orcciani, Boda and yourself there; at any time while you were there was anybody else there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?
A. I saw a woman come by from Brockton, coming from the little house, going in that house.
Q. Go in what house?
A. I guess it is her house.  I don't know.  But when I know little house near the bridge, near motorcycle, about fifteen steps from the motorcycle.
MR. KATZMANN. one moment, please.
Q. Do you know?
THE COURT.  The District Attorney keeps objecting.  Now, kindly
MR. MOORE.  He just the minute before said she was coming down t he road.
Q. Do you know where she came from?
A. By Brockton road.
Q. Do you know whether she came from Brockton or not?
A. No, I can't say.  I couldn't say if she came from the house or Brockton, from some other house.  I saw she come, anyway.
Q. Where did you then go?
A. After I went home.  I took a car.  I went home.  I mean, I took a car, me and Vanzetti.  We got arrested in Brockton.
Q. Now, at the time that you were arrested in Brockton on the street car, did you or Vanzetti, either one of you, reach for or attempt to get a hold of any weapon, any gun?  A. No, sir.
Q. What?
A. No, sir.
Q. You were taken to the Brockton police station, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you questioned there that night?
A. When they arrested us?  No, sir.  They just asked,--I saw the police come in the car.  He walked,--he asked him to keep face,-he says, "You fellows coming from Bridgewater?" The fellows say, "No." So he come about a couple of steps, because we were behind the car.
MR. MOORE.  I Will ask that be stricken out.
Q. Were you questioned at the Brockton police station that night?
A. By police?
Q. Yes.  A. Sure.
Q. Who questioned you?  A. They asked us where we been.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. Who questioned you?  Who asked you the question?  Who was the person present when questions were put to you?
A. First time we got arrested?
Q. Yes.  No, at the Brockton police station; not when you were on
the car, but in the station.
A. You mean after they bring us in the cell?
Q. Yes.
A. After we come out of the cell who questioned us?
Q. Yes, that is right.
A. I think it is Mr.,--I forget the name,
Q. I think we can agree it is this gentleman sitting over here, Mr. Stewart.
A. Yes, sir.  Mr. Stewart.  A couple of other fellows with him.  I do not remember who they were.
Q. All police officers?
A. Well, no, sir.  They was dressed up the way they are now.  Not police officers,--in a room.
Q. Going back for the minute, Mr. Sacco, as you left the Johnson house going walking down the car line--
A. Yes.
Q. --did you speak to some one?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was that, if you know?
A. A woman.
Q. Do you know her name?
A. No.
Q. What did you say to her?
A. I  asked where we could get,--where was, how far was the stop to where we could get the car.  She said, "The white post, right here." She says, "The one is very far away," she says.  So we see the car coming.  I told her how we better wait, because--
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask it be stricken out.
THE COURT.  It may be.
Q. Now, is that the point where you took the car?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, you took the car right near the point where you spoke to the lady? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you ever taken any car there on any previous occasion?
A. Before or after, before when?
Q. Before the night of May 5th?
A. No.
Q. You have heard the testimony of a witness, Mr. Cole, here, to the effect that on April 15th, or April 14th-he is not certain-he had seen you taking a car at this point?  Had you ever taken a car at that point or any point along that line on any previous occasion?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.  Is this a question or argument?
MR. MOORE.  It is a question.
MR. KATZMANN.  Then I object to it.
MR. MOORE.  Intended to meet the issue of the Government's case.
THE COURT.  Repeat the question.
[The question is read.]
THE COURT.  The difficulty is does that contradict Mr. Cole?
MR. MOORE.  It does not, you say, your Honor?
THE COURT.  I say, does it?  As I recall it, Mr. Cole named the place, did he not?
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Wasn't there such a place as Sunset Avenue?
MR. MOORE.  Yes, the same place.
THE COURT.  Now, as I recall it, Mr. Cole testified that the two defendants took the car at that place.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
THE COURT.  That is right, isn't it?
MR. MOORE.  The testimony of Mr. Cole is that on the night of May
5th they took the car at Sunset Avenue.
THE COURT.  Yes, exactly.
MR. MOORE.  And that on the night of April 14th or 15th, they had taken the car at the same point.
THE COURT.  All right.  Now, you may ask him if on either one of those dates he took a car at what is known as Sunset Avenue.  You say that is the--
MR. MOORE.  I had to identify it by "point," your Honor, for him, because I do not think he knows where Sunset Avenue is, except from hearsay since his arrest.
THE COURT.  The difficulty is, if you have it in that form you do not contradict.
MR. MOORE.  Well, except this way: that Mr. Cole said that he took him at a certain point on the night of May 5th that he called Sunset Avenue.  Mr. Cole also says he took him at the same point on the night of April 14th or 15th.  Now, Mr. Cole has identified him.
THE COURT.  Ask him if he took on either one of those dates a car anywhere near this particular location.  That will cover it.
Q. Mr. Sacco, had you on April 14th or 15th or any date taken a car anywhere near or about this point?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever at any time previous to this occasion of May 5th been down to the garage at Elm Square or to Elm Square or to the Johnson house?
A. No, sir.
THE COURT.  Hadn't you better separate those questions?  That leaves the matter open.  You say "the garage." He might so answer, "No, I never was at the garage."
MR. MOORE.  All right.
THE COURT.  He might answer that, "No, but he had been at Elm Square." I suggest you separate those questions.
Q. Had you ever been at the garage before?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or at Elm Square before?
A. I been at Elm Square the 5th of May.  I been in the Square on the 5th of May.
Q. On the 5th of May?
A. Yes.
Q. But had you ever been there on any previous occasion before that ?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever been to the Johnson house before that?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever come in contact in any way-
A. No, sir.
Q. Or know who the Johnsons were previous to your arrest?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco on the night of your arrest and your questioning by Chief Stewart, were you asked by the chief any questions relative to where you were or what you were doing on April 15, 1920?
A. If he did ask me that?  Not that I remember.  He asked me where I was, where I had been in the night.
Q. Where you had been the night of May 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ask you any questions with reference to where you were on the night or the day any time of April 15th, 1920?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Was anything said to you that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me put the question before you answer.  Was there anything said to you that night at all about the South Braintree murder?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, was the particular date of April 15th pointed out to you that night?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you questioned about it---
A. No, sir.
Q. -by Chief Stewart?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you think you were arrested for that night?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  I think that is competent on this theory: you claim that the attempt to draw a revolver is evidence of consciousness of guilt.  Now, what will the jury say about that?  And that being true, I think the witness has a right to explain what he supposed at that time he was being arrested for, because the nature of the charge, the character of the crime may have more or less important bearing in a matter of this kind.  In other words, would a man be likely, on the matter of violating the automobile laws to do anything of the kind?  And he has a right to express what his view was at that time as meeting what you may claim, under the law, is evidence of consciousness of guilt.
MR. KATZMANN.  My objection anticipated that, if your Honor please.  The question was too broad for that.  If it were confined to the moment of his arrest, of course it is admissible.
THE COURT.  It is so near it.  He left the electric car and was then in the police station. The same thing, if he had any opinion it would probably apply to one act as well as the other.  In other words, it meets what you may argue that, under the law, the act itself would indicate the commission of a grave offense.  Now, he has got a right to show he had no such knowledge of what he was arrested for at that time.  He may answer.
[The question is read.]
THE WITNESS.  I don't know myself.  I been hear so many times they say, "You know, you know," that is all.
Q. Did he indicate at all the character of the crime you were arrested for?
A. No, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  Who is "he"?
Q. Did Chief Stewart say what kind of a crime you were arrested for?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did he fix any date as,--well, I will withdraw that.  Did you think that you were arrested for something that you were doing that night?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object to that question.
THE COURT.  That is leading.
MR. MOORE.  All right.
Q. What did you think was the time when the crime that you were arrested for had been committed?
A. I never think anything else than Radical.
Q. What?
A. To the Radical arrest, you know, the way they do in New York, the way they arrest so many people there.
Q. What made you think that?
A. Because I was not registered, and I was working for the movement for the working class, for the laboring class.
Q. Was there anything Chief Stewart said to you that made you think that?
A. Yes.  He did ask me if I was a Socialist.  I did say, "Yes."
Q. Did he ask you any other questions?
A. He asked me why I was in Bridgewater, what for.  I say, "I give him company, Mr. Vanzetti, because he want to see a friend in Bridgewater, some name by Pappi, but I don't know him."
Q. When he asked you what you were in Bridgewater for, did you give a true reason for being there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. Because I was afraid to arrest us, they arrest somebody else of the people, find out after--
MR.  KATZMANN.  May I have that answer?
[The answer is read.]
THE COURT.  Is that a very clear answer, what the witness said?
MR.  MOORE.  That is really not a clear answer.
THE COURT.  I think you should give him an opportunity to explain what he means there.
Q. What did you mean by that last answer of yours, Mr. Sacco?
A. Well, just this: I know some,--the most of the friends, Socialists, why, they are slackers.  They got literature in the house.  They got papers and everything,--Socialist movement.  That is why I was afraid they would do the same way as in New York and in Chicago.
[The last part of the answer is read.]
Q. Did you give Chief Stewart a correct statement that night of your reasons for being there?
MR.  KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  If my brother is going to put in what he said to Stewart, I submit there is only one way.  "What did he say to Stewart?" He is not entitled to pick out such questions as he desires in the conversation.
THE COURT.  Let me hear that question.  It may be he is entitled to it if it goes to some question that directly contradicts some testimony of Chief Stewart.
[The question is read.]
THE COURT.  That does not contradict anything that has been said.
MR.  MOORE.  I am not attempting to at this time.
THE COURT.  Why cross-examine your own witness, that he gave untruthful statements?
Q. Did you give true and correct statements of your reasons for being at Bridgewater?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall the reasons you did give?
A. Yes.  Will I give it?
Q. You, I believe, have stated that you told him you went there to see Pappi with Vanzetti?
A. Yes.
Q. You actually went there to get an automobile?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Sacco, that night, following that conversation of that night, the following day you had a conversation with Mr. Katzmann.  Is that correct?
A. The night after.
Q. May 6th?
A. Yes.
Q. In the course of that conversation with Mr. Katzmann, were you told at any time during that conversation that you were being held as principal or as connected with the South Braintree murder and robbery?
A. No, sir.
Q. During the entire conversation was there a stenographer present, as you recollect it?
A. I should say yes.
Q. Mr. Katzmann came in with a stenographer, did he?
A. No.  I find him in with the stenographer.
Q. You were brought in to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Any one else present in addition to Mr. Katzmann and the stenographer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who?
A. It was a big man like, bigger than Mr. Katzmann.
Q. You were not introduced to any of these people?
A. No, no.  It was an interpreter.
Q. An interpreter?
A. Yes, an Italian interpreter.
Q. Were all the questions and answers taken through an interpreter, or was it direct, without an interpreter?
A. Well, sometimes I could not answer and the interpreter explained.
Q. Most of it is direct without an interpreter?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you told that you were charged with any crime?
A. No, sir.
Q. To the best of your knowledge, had you been charged with any crime?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long did this conversation last as you best remember, your best estimate of the time?
A. I should say about more than one hour.  I could not remember, but I think it was more than one hour.
Q. And during this entire period of time, nothing was said with reference to any particular crime committed at any particular place?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you think you were being held for, then, by Mr. Katzmann?
A. I did not know, I did not know myself.
Q. Now, go back for the minute.  You had a gun, a revolver, rather, at the time of your arrest?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  You are really assuming Mr.,--of course, you are assuming right.
MR. MOORE.  I am attempting to shorten it.  That is all.
MR. KATZMANN.  That is all right.
Q. Did you have a revolver at the time of your arrest.
THE COURT.  Was it a revolver or pistol?  I remember there was a lot of talk about whether it was a revolver or a pistol.  As I recall it, the experts call it a pistol, do they not?
MR. MOORE.  To be perfectly frank, your Honor, in the section where, theoretically, at least, we have some knowledge of those weapons, we would ordinarily, I think I am correct in saying it call it a revolver.  I think we understand the language that is used.
THE COURT.  I think the experts called one--and that was the weapon found upon Vanzetti--as a revolver; and the one found upon the defendant Sacco was an automatic pistol.
MR. MOORE.  Yes, I think that is correct.
THE COURT.  If you just substitute the word "pistol" for "revolver" then you will come within the testimony.
MR. MOORE.  Before taking that matter up, however, I will withdraw that question for the minute.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, on the night of May 5th, you went to the,--with Boda, Orcciani and Vanzetti, to the Johnson house.  Why, for what purpose and reason?
A. To get the automobile.
Q. Why did you want an automobile?
A. To get the literature.
Q. When had you decided to get the literature?
A. I could not say, because I was just in his company that night.  I was to go back to the old country.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask it be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  Strike it out.
Q. When had you decided to get this literature?  What date had you decided to get it? A. I suppose they will get it if they have a chance; the same night, some house.
Q. On what previous occasion, when before this time, before May 5th, had you decided to get it?
A. Oh, May 4th.
Q. Had there been any discussion about it on any previous time before May 4th?
A. No. Yes; May 2d.
Q. Where at?
A. In Maverick Square, up to the hall, East Boston.
Q. Now, who was present at that time?
THE COURT.  What was the date?
MR. MOORE.  May 2d.
A. Me,--I, Mr. Vanzetti, Orcciani, Colorarossi, Orestes Bianci, Sairingi.
THE COURT.  Is that the same meeting about which we already inquired?
MR. MOORE.  I was just going to ask him if all the names he previously mentioned were there.  That is what I was going to ask him.
Q. In addition to all the names you have mentioned, Mr. Sacco, was all the persons you have heretofore mentioned in your testimony present at this meeting of May 2d or part of them?
A. Yes, they were present.
Q. Was Vanzetti there?
A. Sure.
Q. What did he say to this meeting?
A.  He is the one who report from New York.
Q. What did he say he had done and had to report from New York?
A. Well, he says, "New York says it is pretty kind of dangerous for Radical," so he went over to find out about the money for Salsedo, who is receiving the money.
THE COURT.  Who is what?
THE WITNESS.  Receiving money.
THE COURT.  Receiving money?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.  To defend Salsedo and Elia.
Q. Did he say what Salsedo and Elia were being held for?
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  You lead this witness, Mr. Moore.
MR. MOORE.  Now, may I make an offer, your Honor, in order that I may bring clearly home--
THE COURT.  Why don't you put a proper question, not put a leading question?  That is the objection.
Q. Did he state to you what they were charged with?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.  Does your Honor rule that question is--
THE COURT.  His other question was leading.  Of course, it does not appear now this man in New York was charged with anything.  They may get this in an another way, so it seems to me-- "Did what Vanzetti reported that night at that meeting have any effect upon your mind so far as affecting your conduct in any manner whatsoever?"
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
THE COURT.  "In what respect did it affect your mind?" Now, that gives you the opportunity to fully explain everything that had any influence whatsoever upon your mind, whether it was hearsay or whatever it may be.  Now, go ahead, please.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, what did Mr. Vanzetti say about—
THE COURT.  You may answer my question.
[The question of the Court is read as follows:
Q.  Did what Vanzetti reported that night at that meeting have any effect upon your mind so far as affecting your conduct in any manner whatsoever?"]
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
THE COURT.  Now, you may answer.
THE WITNESS.  Vanzetti come into the hall.  He told us we are to get ready and advise our friends, any friend who knows a friend as a Socialist and active in the movement of labor, why, they are advised to get the books and literature to put at some place and hide not to find by the police or the state.  And another thing he says nobody know why they arrest Salsedo and Elia.
THE COURT.  Nobody knows--
THE WITNESS.  Why, for what charge they did arrest Salsedo and Elia and Cammiti, and some of the other fellows before.  So they say after all over in New York, a spy to find out the Radicals and they find out the same, the money, all the friends that been sending from Massachusetts and all over New England, been sending the money for the defending of Salsedo and Elia,--who is the man receiving it, who is the man responsible for those things, so we decided and Vanzetti decided it was same time, the quicker we come and get literature and anything out of the Radicals' house, the Socialists, and to hide it.  That is all he said.  That is why I remembered.  He probably said some more, but I could not remember all the conversation we had, because he been talking an hour, pretty near hour and a half, and I could not remember all he says.
Q. Did you know of various men who had been held and deported by reason of their ideas or opinions?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  We are going a good ways, aren't we, into this matter?  I can't see why now the whole thing is not opened up.  Inasmuch as it has been opened up, I do not feel disposed to cut it short.  You may answer.
[The question is read.]
THE WITNESS.  You mean before that or that time?
Q. Before May 5th?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you in mind any particular persons?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who?
A. Fruzetti, from Bridgewater.
THE COURT.  Who?
THE WITNESS.  Fruzetti.
THE COURT.  How do you spell it?
THE WITNESS.  F-r-u-z-e-t-t-i.
Q. Any other persons?
A. I know another fellow from Bridgewater, but I forget his name, but I am sure another fellow from Bridgewater was deported, and another fellow from Brockton.  He is not deported yet, but he is under deportation.  He is Papetti, call the name Papetti.  There is another name, Mondanari.  I forget the first name.  And I know some other fellows, too, been under deportation in Massachusetts.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, what was the decision reached, if any, on May 2d with reference to the taking care of or moving of this literature you have referred to?
A. Taking care?
Q. What decision was reached?  How were you going to do it?
A. Well, I suppose we take
Q. Not what you supposed.  What did you discuss as to method of doing it on May 2d?  A. The best way to take by automobile, could run more fast, could get more fast, could hide more fast.  It could go, and some have a little education, you know, to find where you could put so well some place to hide, see; to learn where nobody could know anything.  That is all.
Q. Who had an automobile?
A. Well, I don't know who had it, because we have been talking about finding somebody who could have it, who could offer himself.
Q. Who did?
A. Well, Orcciani says he knows Boda, he has an automobile.  "I will ask him if he wants to come.  I think he won't refuse to do such work, because he is a Socialist himself.  He is an active Socialist."
MR. KATZMANN.  What is that other word, "this"?
THE WITNESS.  No. "Active Socialist."
Q. When were you to see about whether the car would be usable or "get-atable"?  When were you to find out about the car?
A. Well, we were waiting for the answer.  Orcciani was to get the answer.
Q. Waiting for the answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was to get the answer?
A. Orcciani.
Q. Did he deliver the answer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When?
A. May 4th when I go back to Boston I went over to his house.  He told me, so I told him Vanzetti was over to my house, so he came with me together to have a conversation in my house.
Q. Is that the day you went into Boston?
A. Yes.
Q. And got your passport?
A. Yes.
Q. And on your way back out of Boston you stopped and saw Orcciani ?
A. Yes.
Q. Then he drove you home with his motorcycle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, in connection with the conversation with the consul on April 15th, did he show you the form that is attached to the deposition here, a form similar to this and indicate the character of the photograph that would have to go on the passport?
MR. KATZMANN.  I object to that question.
THE COURT.  It is leading.
MR. MOORE.  All right.  withdraw it.
Q. Was anything said by the consul with reference to the size of the photograph that would be used on a passport?
A. You mean the 15th of April?
Q. Yes?
A. Yes.
Q. By the way, Mr. Sacco, there has been introduced in evidence here a cap that is marked Exhibit 29.  Is that your cap?
A. [Witness examines cap.] I never wear black much.  Always a gray cap; always wear gray cap.  Always I like gray cap.
MR. MOORE.  That is not an answer to my question.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that answer be stricken out.  The question is, is it your cap, not what color he wears.
THE WITNESS.  No, sir.
THE COURT.  The other answer may be stricken out.
Q. Do you know anything about that cap?
A. No, sir, never saw it.
Q. Did you ever have a cap of any color made in that form with the fur lining?
A. Never in my life.
Q. See if this is your size.
A. [Witness puts cap on head.] The way I look.  Could not go in.  My size is 71/8th.
THE COURT.  Put that on again, please.
[The witness places cap on head again.]
THE COURT.  That is all.
Q. Do you know anything at all about the history of that cap, where it came from or who it belongs to, anything about it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, Mr. Cole has testified that at the time of the hearing in the Quincy court when he came into the court room, you nodded to him?
A. No, sir.
MR.  KATZMANN.  One moment, Mr. Moore.  You don't mean that question, do you, in the Quincy court?
MR.  MOORE.  Now, to be perfectly frank, I am not positive whether it was Quincy court or Brockton.
MR. KATZMANN.  Brockton.
MR.  MOORE.  All right.
Q. In the Brockton court, did you nod to him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had you ever seen or come in contact with that man at any time in your life other than the night of the arrest?
A. No, sir, nobody.  I did see that day in Brockton.  I know it.
Q. Mr. Sacco, do you know anything about that cap [indicating] ?
A. That is my cap.
Q. When did you buy that?
A. I buy that sometime last March.
Q. Last March?
A. In 1920.
Q. Did you have another cap that you used, or did you have another cap in addition to that one?
A. Certainly.
Q. What kind of a cap?
A. Just the same.
A little more white, gray.
Q. Of the same general-
A. The same shape.
Q. And the kind of material?
A. Yes, and the same shape.
Q. What became of the cap, the other one, in addition to that, if you know?
A. I did not get that, Mr. Moore.
Q. Do you know where the other hat of yours is?
A. Sure.
Q. Where?
A. The police took from my house.  I heard that by my wife.
Q. You do not know that of personal knowledge?
A. No, no, I did not see it.
Q. Did you have any cap at any time of any material other than the general type of material represented by the one you are holding in your hand?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get my question?  Did you have any other kind of a cap other than the one you have in your hand?
A. Different to this?  No.
MR. MOORE.  We ask this be marked at this time as defendant's exhibit and make a request also at this time, your Honor, the cap, if any of the Government officers have the cap that we understand was taken in the Sacco home May 6th, or thereabouts, that that-
THE COURT.  Why haven't you asked the District Attorney privately if he has or anybody representing him?
MR. KATZMANN.  No trouble about it, your Honor.  We leave the cap, we have had the witness here all day yesterday, waiting for Sacco to be on the stand.  We do not think he is here today, but we will introduce it before he gets off the stand.
MR. MOORE.  May I ask. also, Mr. Katzmann, if the matter of the memoranda in Italian, have you been able to locate that?
MR. KATZMANN.  No. We looked for it.  You mean that was taken from this defendant the night of his arrest?  We have not.  All I have is the translation I used.
MR. MOORE.  Is the cap here in court?  It is in your room, is it?
MR. KATZMANN.  No. It is in the possession of the officer who took it, whom we had here yesterday for the purpose.
MR. MOORE.  You will have it here sometime tomorrow?
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.  We would have it here sometime today if we thought we would reach it.
[Cap admitted in evidence and marked "Exhibit O."]
Q. At the time you were in the Brockton police station after your arrest various persons were brought to you, brought into the room where you were, to identify you?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  Somewhat leading, isn't it?
MR. MOORE.  I am trying to identify the time, what happened at that time.
Q. How many persons in the first instance were brought in, if you know, approximately?
A. If you please let me explain the whole story.
Q. Go ahead.  Tell what happened.
A. The day after, you mean, or the first night we got arrested?
Q. Go ahead.
A. The first night we got arrested they brought us in the cell.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, speak, please, so we may hear, will you?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.  The first night we got arrested they bring us in the cell.  After a few minutes or fifteen minutes they get at Vanzetti. So Vanzetti, I don't know how long he stood.  He come back after a little while, and they took me, and I went in a room, not quite a large room, but like that square where they are, the jury.  I see Mr. Stewart and a couple of other fellows, police, I suppose.  I don't know.  They asked me something, you know, Socialist, and about why I was in Bridgewater for, and so after that they bring me back.  They took Vanzetti again, too. After Vanzetti, I went up again myself in the room.  I don't see no more Mr. Stewart, but I see somebody else.  It was about six,--four or five or six.  He say one thing I could not answer now.  I say, "See, you fellows won't let me answer.  I don't know what you fellows say." They won't give me any chances to give answer.
MR. KATZMANN.  If your Honor please, of course this man is not entitled to conversations he had with everybody in the room in that police station.  That is what he is proceeding to give under this open question.
THE COURT.  That is not competent.  Anything that tended to attack any police officer who has been called is competent.
Q. Mr. Sacco, was there any person brought in to identify you on the night of May 5th?
MR. KATZMANN.  How could he say, if your Honor please?
A. The night--
THE COURT.  Wait one minute.
MR. MOORE.  I will withdraw that question.
Q. Have you seen any person that has testified in this case, did you see any of those persons on the night of May 5th?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, on May 6th, were people brought into the room where you were?  A. After the court.
Q. After what?
A. The court.  After we come back to court, the court house, to Brockton court house.
Q. That was on May 6th?
A. Yes, we have a photograph.
THE COURT.  What were you taken down to the court house for?
Q. What were you taken to the court house for?
A. I don't know.
Q. Were you taken into court there?
A. Before we took to court I saw a man over there, two men, I do not know for sure if it was two or three.  He was sitting down on a seat on a bench, before we got into court, before we go in front of the Judge.
Q. Did you go in front of any Judge on May 6th?
A. May 6th?  I think I made a mistake.  I guess we went on Saturday or Friday.  No, on Saturday.
Q. You were arrested on Wednesday, May 5th, weren't you?
A. Yes.  We went in court Saturday morning.
Q. On May 6th, were there people brought in who looked you over?
A.  Yes.
Q. Where at?
A. Up to the police station in Brockton.
Q. Where at, at Brockton?
A. Yes, in Brockton police station.
Q. How many people were brought in to look you over that day, if
you know, approximately?
A. Oh, I couldn't say how many there was, Mr. Moore, but I know there was more than thirty, I should say twenty-five or thirty.
Q. Where were those?  You do not know, I suppose, where those people were from?
A. No, sir.
Q. What were you told to do when these people were brought in, and what did you do?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  By whom?  Supposing somebody did?  It must be somebody who spoke with authority.  It should be some one who was here as a witness.
Q. Were you at that time in custody of police officers?
A. Yes.  The same as myself, same as Mr. Vanzetti.  They bring first him.  After him they bring me.
Q. What room were you in the Brockton police station when these people were brought in to look at you?  A. Quite a large room.
Q. Do you know what room they call it?
A. No, I can't say, but it was a pretty large room, anyway.
Q. Who was in charge?  What officer was there, if you know, in charge of you?
A. It was one of the officers who arrested us.
Q. Officer Connolly, or don't you know?
A. I don't know the name, but I know him, one witness.
Q. One of the witnesses in this case?
A. Yes, kind of skinny and tall.
Q. Officer Gueron?
A. Who?
Q. Officer Gueron?
A. No. I do not know his name, but he comes from Quincy.
Q. Officer Brouillard?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean this gentleman sitting at the end of the table over here or not?
A. No, no, the old man.  I can't say the name; from Quincy, with eye glass, white hair.
THE COURT.  Over here?
THE WITNESS.  Near the Italian consul.
THE COURT.  Mr. Scott?
THE WITNESS.  No, this man before the Italian consul.
THE COURT.  That is Captain Scott, isn't it?
THE WITNESS.  Captain Scott, yes.
Q. Captain Scott?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.  What did he tell you to do when these people were brought in?
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  Has he testified yet?
MR. MOORE.  No.
THE COURT.  How can what he said bind the Commonwealth in any way?
MR. MOORE.  Well, I am not going any further than to show the attempts at identification.  That is all I am aiming at.
THE COURT.  What other effect can that have than to bind in some way the Commonwealth by an action of a police officer?  They don't speak for the Commonwealth.  Isn't there decisions to the effect if one man who said, "I do not know whether that is a person or not," is that evidence on the question of identification?
MR. MOORE.  I have in mind, your Honor, we ought to be permitted to show--
THE COURT.  I would like to have you first give me some authority tomorrow morning to that effect.
MR. MOORE.  All right.  May I ask one or two questions-passing this issue?
THE COURT.  Sure.
Q. Did you obey and comply with every request that was made of you during the time that you were being looked over?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. What did you do to comply with these requests?
A. I guess I can't get that.
Q. What did you do in order to meet the requests of the officers when these people were looking you over?  What did you do as these people came in and went out?
A. Oh, I walked, stayed still like that, and the first time they brought over about five or six people, four men and two women, two women, one young girl there, but I --never saw her over on the stand,--kind of dark complexion, very nice looking girl, dressed up good, and she was the first, and three or four men.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that he be asked to answer the question, "What did you do?" He proceeds to tell what some girl looked like, she had a nice complexion.
MR. MOORE.  I agree with that.
THE COURT.  No question, Mr. Moore, that the witness did everything voluntarily that the police asked him to do.  Aren't you opening up now a field that will admit the photographs as competent evidence?  I only make that suggestion.
MR.  MOORE.  I realize that, your Honor.  My question goes to the point of the police station.
THE COURT.  He was at the police station when the pictures were taken.
MR. MOORE.  I think not.  I think they were taken outside, as I recollect the testimony.
THE COURT.  It is for you to go ahead.  I make the suggestion.  I have excluded the pictures up to the present time.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
Q. How many people, Mr. Sacco, would you say looked you over that first day after you were arrested?
THE COURT.  Suppose we leave this until you furnish some authority that says it is evidence.  In other words, supposing a dozen people see a man and say, "I can't recognize a person." Is that competent evidence as bearing upon the question of identity?  If a man says that he is, why, that is evidence.  If a man says, "I think he is the person," that is evidence, but a man says, "I do not know whether that is the person or not," is that competent evidence as bearing upon any question involved in this case, I would like some authority on that, if you please.
MR. MOORE.  Yes, your Honor.  I might at this time make the same request with reference to some other articles of clothing, Mr. Katzmann, that you will probably have here in the morning, a coat and one or two other articles.
MR. KATZMANN.  Of his?
MR. MOORE.  Yes.  Then there are also some matters of handcuffs taken out of the house at the time of--
MR. KATZMANN.  Supposing you adopt the Court's suggestion.  You are making a statement they were.  I do not know whether it is true or not.
MR. MOORE.  There may be other matters, your Honor, in connection with this witness.
THE COURT.  Are you nearly through with the witness?
MR. MOORE.  There are some matters that counsel have marked here that I haven't had a chance to check over.
THE COURT.  I would like to, without any injustice in any way to the defendant, I would like to finish the direct tonight if we can.  Otherwise, of course, anything omitted you could take up tomorrow.
MR. MOORE.  Your Honor, there are one or two matters here.  One is the question of the passport which physically I haven't in my possession at this time.  There is also the question of some letters which physically I haven't in my possession at this time.  I think that that is all.  It is barely possible upon checking things over this evening--
THE COURT.  If you check things over and anything is omitted, of course you can take that up to-morrow.
MR. MOORE.  But other than those two physical matters I have in mind now-
THE COURT.  Anything upon checking up you find you have omitted, of course you will be given an opportunity to go into such matters as that, and with that statement I think we will adjourn now until to-morrow morning at 9.30.
[Adjourned to Thursday, July 7, 1921, at 9:30 a.m.]

THIRTY-FIRST DAY. Thursday, July 7, 1921.

 Direct Examination, Resumed.
Q. [By Mr. Moore.] Mr. Sacco, what did you intend to do on arrival West Bridgewater or at Elm Square that night?
A. We went there to get the automobile.
Q. Then what were you going to do?  Tell us what did you intend to do?
A. Well, if we get the automobile, Vanzetti and Boda will go to Plymouth.  Before they go to Plymouth, they are to go and see Pappi in Bridgewater, West Bridgewater,--I do not know where it is--and I will come back with Orcciani, with me to Brockton to see the friends, my friends, and try to find out when we can print those handbills, print, have the bills for Sunday, and another thing, I will advise the same thing to my friends to be preparing, letter and paper, everything in a valise, so next day the friend will come around and take the literature and bring it away.  Then after I go back to my house,--Orcciani bring me to my house.
Q. Who did you intend to see that night in Brockton?
A. Mike Colombo.
Q. Any one else you think of?
A. Rocco Alexandro.
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, I believe you stated yesterday that on May 4th you had secured your Foglio di Via from the Italian consulate.  Is that [indicating] the paper you were given at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. MOORE.  I offer this in evidence, your Honor. [Handing to the Court.]
THE COURT.  The date of that is May 4th 9.
THE WITNESS.  Yes.
[Mr.  Moore shows Foglio di Via to Mr. Katzmann.]
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco,--
MR. KATZMANN.  Just a minute, Mr. Moore, please.  Mr. Ross [Mr.  Ross confers with Mr. Katzmann.]
MR. KATZMANN.  In view of the language it is in, your Honor, I am asking the interpreter to read it to me.
THE COURT.  All right.
MR. KATZMANN.  I won't take the time to have it all read now, if your Honor please.
MR. MOORE.  The passport paper is offered as an exhibit at this time.
THE COURT.  Is that a passport itself or something that takes the place of it?
MR. MOORE.  Technically speaking, I understand it is not a passport.
THE COURT.  That is my impression.
[Foglio di Via issued to defendant Sacco is offered in evidence and marked "Exhibit P."]
Q. Mr. Sacco, how did it happen that you were carrying on the evening of May 5th a revolver or a pistol?
A. Well, to use like that.  My wife used to clean the house, get ready, because we are to go Saturday to New York to get the steamboat, and she was getting ready, and so she cleaned the bureau, and because the revolver, the pistol and bullets--
MR. KATZMANN.  I will have to ask him to repeat.
MR. MOORE.  Speak louder.
THE WITNESS.  The pistol and the bullets.
MR. KATZMANN.  I would like to have him start again.
Q. Start again.  Repeat that entire answer loud and full.
A. May 5th, always to start from May 2d.  My wife started to pre-
pare something, the clothes, you know, to get ready, so May 5th she cleaned the bureau, and the pistol was closed with a key, because I was afraid that sometime my boy could go after it, so she cleaned the bureau and she pulled out the bullets and the pistol, and then she ask me, she said, "What are you going to do, Nick, with this?"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. Not what she said to you, but -what you did.  A. So I took that sometime in the afternoon, about half past three, I should say, about four 0 'clock, anyway.  I said, "Well, I go to shoot in the woods, me and Vanzetti." So I did.  I took it in my pocket.  I put the revolver over here [indicating] and the bullets in my pocket, in my pocket back.  Well, we started to talk in the afternoon, me and Vanzetti, and half past four Oreciani and Boda came over to the house, so we started an argument and I forgot about to go in the woods shooting, so it was still left in my pocket.
Q. Where did the shells that you had in your pocket at the time that evening when you were arrested, where had you gotten those?
A. I bought.  I bought that on Hanover Street.
THE COURT.  Boston?
THE WITNESS.  Yes, Boston.
Q. Have you any idea how long you had had them?
A. How long I did bought that?  I bought sometime in 1917 or 1918, I suppose, 1918 or 1917.  I am no sure.  I can't remember the date, but I buy that sometime in the war times when the bullets were very scarce and you could not buy it.
Q. I am referring, Mr. Sacco, to the .32 calibre loaded shells that were in the gun and in your pocket?
A. Yes.
Q. At the time of your arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. That is what you are referring to?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when had you received word of your mother's death?
A. I received a letter, the first letter from my father.  It was sometime the last of March.  My mother died on the 7th of March.  The letter came about the 22d or 23d of March, I should say.  I do not remember exactly the day, but I should say that time, about that time.
Q. Did you speak to Mr. Kelley about leaving his employ and going to Italy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At the time, or about April 15th, what steps had you taken to secure some one to take your place, if any?
A. I spoke with George Kelley.  That is the son of Michael Kelley.  He is running the factory there.  He is the superintendent.  So I say, "George, I desire to go to Italy."
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
Q. Not what you said to him.  What did you do, and what was done?  Did you tell Mr. Kelley you were going to Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. What steps were then taken to get some one to take your place?
A. I told him about Monday before March, because I was ready to go before March.  I told George to find a man as quickly as he can.  I say, I am not going to leave you,"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment, if your Honor please.
Q. Do you know who came, or who was secured to take your place?
A. Yes.  He asked me if Henry Iacovelli could come with me.  He was a witness here.
Q. Do you know whether or not this gentleman came?
A. Yes, he did came.
Q. Do you know when?
A. The 15th of April with his wife over to my house.
Q. You were not present when they came?
A. No, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  I ask that be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  I wanted to clarify that.
Q. You did not actually see Mr. Iacovelli that day at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, you were carrying during the period of your work for the 3-K Company, you carried a bank account, did you not?
A. What?
Q. You carried a bank account?  You had a bank account, savings account?
A. My wife does that.
Q. Your wife had?
A. Yes.
Q. The money that went into that account, was that money that you had earned?
A. Money I make by work as I give to my wife.
Q. During any of the time-- was your wife working also?
A. Yes, she did for a little while when we were in Brockton.
Q. Just when was that?
A. That was in 1918 between March and April.  A couple of months she worked, and then I stopped.
Q. She worked then how long before you went to the 3-K?
A. She worked how long?
Q. How long?
A. She worked 9
Q. Yes.
A. I should say about two months straight.
Q. Then when you went to the 3-K, in addition to the regular work as a piece worker, did you do anything else?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. I used to light the steam heat in the shop in the winter time, the fireman, and assist watch the shop.
Q. Anything else?
A. No.
Q. How did-you get in and out of the shop?
A. What?
Q. How did you get into the shop?
A. By the key.
Q. Did you always carry a key to the shop?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how long, to your remembrance, was it that you carried the keys to the 3-K factory?
A. I should say about seven or eight months.
Q. Mr. Sacco, does this savings account deposit book appearing in the name of Rose Sacco, account No. 78320, represent the deposits and the bank balance from your earnings or your joint earnings? A. Yes.  Of course, I don't know the,--remember how much she have. I never ask how much she have in the bank, but my wife, she know better.  I never put money in the bank,--sometime my wife was busy, but most of the time it was my wife go.  I never know how much she have, either.
MR. MOORE.  We offer that, your Honor.
MR. KATZMANN.  I object to that, if your Honor please.
THE COURT.  On the ground that he knows nothing about it?
MR. KATZMANN.  Yes.  He said he did not know the amount she had, and did not put the money in the bank.  Should have somebody to identity the--
THE COURT.  Supposing she does say later that represents money given the bank by her?  What do you say then as to its competency?
MR. KATZMANN.  I say it is competent.
MR. MOORE.  Then, of course, the witness has already testified that he made some of the deposits. However, if your Honor desires, we will refrain from offering--
THE COURT.  That is not concerning,--I would not say it is important, neither would I say it is unimportant.  If you say later evidence will be offered--
MR. MOORE.  Tending-
THE COURT. --tending to prove that, why, I think I ought not to force you to recall the defendant in a matter of that kind.  Is it your purpose to call the wife, Mr. Moore?
MR. MOORE.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  Is it your purpose to call the wife?
MR. MOORE.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  It may be.  With that understanding you may.  It may be received in evidence.
Q. Mr. Sacco, in addition to regular money that you received for your piece work with the 3-K Company,--
A. Yes.
Q.--did you receive any other money?
A. Yes.
Q. How much?
A. $26 a month.
Q. What is your best recollection of the approximate period that you received that?  A. Well, that is separated from my piece work every month.
Q. I know, but for how long a period of time did you receive that, to your best recollection?
A. I should say seven or eight months.  I am not sure, but I am sure seven months, anyway.
Q. Mr. Sacco, at the time that you were taken into the Brockton police station on May 6th or 7th, what did you do at the time that various people came into that room, into the jail, to look at you?
A. I walked with a couple of police away tip to the big room, up to the police station.
Q. Speak loudly and fully.
A. And when I went in the bi- room, I find a couple from Brockton, from Quincy,--Mr.  Scott.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, if your Honor please, the question is, what he did.
MR. MOORE.  Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. So I went in.  I stand up.  Sometimes I turned around like that [indicating].  Sometimes faced like that [indicating] the first time.  There was about six or seven people watching the way I was turning around.  The second time Miss Devlin
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE WITNESS.  Mrs. Devlin-
THE COURT.  That is not responsive.
Q. Are you referring to some one that has testified in this case?  Are you attempting to give the name of a person that testified here?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the name you are giving?
A. Miss Devlin and Miss Splaine.
Q. Miss Devlin and Miss Splaine.
A. They were together,--six more men, and another girl.
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  The trouble is it is not responsive.  Put another question if you want to get at the names of the parties who testified.
Q. Was there any one else there that has testified in this case?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?  A. A fellow from South Braintree, a shoemaker, Berdinus.  He was there.
Q. Louis Berdinus?
A. Yes.
Q. Any one else you remember?
A. No. Yes, I saw another one.
Q. What did you do when these various people were in the room?
A. The first time I walked a couple of steps.  Then I walked a couple of steps like that [indicating].  Then I walk a couple of steps like that [indicating] in this way.  So the second time I cross like that [indicating].  They make me just to shoot, wait for somebody to hold up money, with a dirty cap on my head.  The second time he put the hair like that [indicating] with the hands, and I turned around.  On the second time make—
Q. How do you mean with your eyes, eyes looking up?
A. Yes, still.  The other time made me look on the right side with eyes raised, and four times this way [indicating] with the left side.
Q. Turned your eyes to the left?
A. Yes.  So when I stand again, they put a cap, the old cap on again.  After that that was all.
Q. Did any of these people who were in the room at the time that you did these things, did any of these people do anything themselves?
A. They watch pretty carefully, pretty close, and the most of the people I could see the head very sorry, shaken.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, one moment, if your Honor please.  I ask that be stricken out.
MR. MOORE.  I will consent to the striking out of everything except the shaking of the head.
MR. KATZMANN.  That is the part I insist be stricken out.
THE COURT.  The difficulty comes with that Mr. Moore it identifies nobody.  If he can state the ones who shook their head, it would perhaps be better; perhaps he can recollect some of those who did shake their head.  If he does, I think that is competent.
Q. Can you tell what any particular person did?
A. Yes.
Q. State to the jury.
A. Berdinus, the shoemaker from South Braintree, he saw me pretty close.  He turned,-make me turn around about four or five times, walking.  Any position they told me I been done.  So after they asked him, "What do you think?" he was kind of sorry.  He said, "No, sir," and so they answered back.
Q. You say Berdirius said, "No, sir"?
A. Yes.  After he looked at me five minutes.  Any position they told me to do, I been done.  So, after all, he says, "No, sir."
[Witness makes further remarks unintelligible to stenographer.]
MR. KATZMANN.  Of course, if your Honor please, that last part is not only irresponsive, but it is not admissible and not competent against the Commonwealth.  A couple of police from Quincy don't bind the Commonwealth, if they ever said it.
THE COURT.  Have they testified?
MR. MOORE.  I think I can clarify that in one question.
Q. Have you any of the officers, any of them, who made the remarks that you have just attributed to them, have they or have they not testified in this case?
A. No, sir.
MR. KATZMANN.  Now, I renew the objection it be stricken out.
THE COURT.  All right.  I don't know what it is.  I heard something about a "wop." I don't know what that is, what he said, or in connection with how it came in.  Do you admit it?
MR. MOORE.  Frankly I know what was said, but there is only one way--
THE COURT.  The stenographer hasn't got it.  I ought to know what it is if I am going to order it stricken from the record.  If you agree it may be stricken from the record, whatever it was, then-
Q. Now, Mr. Sacco, did any of these people come back on more than one occasion?  Did they look at you on more than-one time?
A. Yes.
Q. Who looked it you on more than one occasion?
A. I could recognize they were Miss Splaine and Miss Devlin.
Q. Miss Devlin?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times did Miss Splaine come and look at you?
A. I should say three times.
Q. And how many times did Miss Devlin come?
A. Two or three. times.  I am not sure three, but I saw, very sure, two.
Q. How many persons, all told, Mr. Sacco, looked at you during the time that you were in the jail there?
A. I should say about one hundred.
Q. Mr.  Sacco, at the time that you were arrested, did you have at that time all of the .32 calibre shells or any calibre shells of any kind or character that there was in your house?  A. Yes, sir.
Q. There has been some testimony here with reference to some shotgun shells.  What is the history of those shells, Mr. Sacco?
A. The history of those shells,--one of the friends of mine, sometime in 1919 or 1918,
I can't remember exactly--
Q. 1919 or 1918.  Is that what you mean, not 1908?
A. Yes.  So he came over with his wife--his wife was sick--to pass a couple of days
with me to my house.  He was going to Italy, the whole family.  So he came with an automobile over there.  He bring a gun, and at the same time he bring a box of shells, and we went in the woods that day, me, him and his wife, playing and shooting in the wood,-mostly destroyed moths, but there was left in the box about three.  So the three were always in my house.  The 5th of May, when Vanzetti came over, he went to drink water and he saw those three shells.  My wife was cleaning over there.
Q. Where were they?
A. On a shelf near where they put the glass, glass and everything in back.  So my wife, going to clean, she put them in front, and Vanzetti said, "What are you going to do with these?"
MR. KATZMANN.  One moment.
THE COURT.  Were you present?
THE WITNESS.  Yes, I was present.  My wife was present, too.
THE COURT.  Your wife gave them to the defendant Vanzetti?
THE WITNESS.  No, they were,-naturally he took them with his hands.
THE COURT.  He took them with his hands?
THE WITNESS.  Yes.  Took and says, "I will bring them to Plymouth to a friend of mine so I could make fifty cents for the benefit for the prisoner and other things."
Q. Mr. Sacco, yesterday I asked you if you were at South Braintree on April 15, 1920? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you shoot any one, make any attack upon any one?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or participate in any crime of any kind or character at South Braintree at any time April 15th, or any other date?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mr. Sacco, you know Mr. Dominick Ricci?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see Mr.—
A. --Ricci?
Q. --at Stoughton?
A. Yes.
Q. And also at the 3-K factory?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On what days?
A. At 3-K, you mean?
Q. What time did you see him there, on what date?
A. In the factory ?
Q. At the factory and also on the street?
 A. Well, I used to see him pretty near every day when he used to go to work there, in the factory, but I remember I saw him in the factory in the morning.  He used to come over and read the paper every morning, because he used to work over there near the factory, building a house.
MR. MOORE.  That is all.
Direct Examination by Mr. Jeremiah McAnarney.
Mr. Sacco, after you were arrested, you were taken to the police station at Brockton?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were questioned by, you have said, Chief Stewart?
A. Yes, the first time.
Q. And who questioned you the second time?
A. I could not remember, Mr. McAnarney.  I don't remember.  Some other policeman: but I don't remember the name.
Q. Were you later asked questions by Mr. Katzmann?
A. Yes.  The second day, the 6th.
Q. The next day?
A. Yes, May 6th, in the night.
THE COURT.  Anything in addition to what Mr. Moore brought out that you desire to bring out, Mr. McAnarney?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Yes, sir.
THE COURT.  I wish you would come right to it, please.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I want to show that he had the interview, and then what transpired.
Q. How long were you questioned by Mr. Katzmann?  About how long, if you recall?
A. I think about an hour,--more than an hour, anyway.
Q. He asked you questions about,-- I don't ask what details, but generally what did,--well, to go back to Stewart.  What did Stewart ask you about?

MR. KATZMANN.  Haven't we been all over this, your Honor?
THE COURT.  I thought so.  How would it be competent generally?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  What Stewart said to him?
THE COURT.  Yes.  Only so far as it may contradict Mr. Stewart's testimony.  What a police officer says or what a District Attorney said--
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Whatever took place, your Honor please, between him and Chief Stewart, the officer sitting here at the desk advising with the District Attorney, the officer who took him after his arrest.  It seems to me that is competent.
THE COURT.  On what theory?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  On the theory that here is the Chief of Bridgewater in whose district the man is arrested.  The prisoner is now interrogated by the Chief, and the Chief is here, been here since this trial started, advising with the District Attorney.  Now, whatever interrogation the Chief makes of this man as bearing on what he was arrested for, what he was held for, what he supposed he was charged with when he made whatever answers he made, it seems to me as though we have nothing only a fiction unless we have the fact.
THE COURT.  You may have much of that.  You are entitled to it.  If because a man is chief of police, no defendant can introduce self-serving statements.  They are not competent as a matter of law.  Therefore, if that is the sole purpose, I must exclude it.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Not because he is chief of police, but for all the reasons I have said.
THE COURT.  If the chief of police should take the witness stand, or anything that he has testified to, then can he of course, contradict him on any conversation the Chief has opened up, you are entitled to all of it, but merely because a man is chief of police, that does not give a defendant a right to introduce self-serving statements  It is purely hearsay, as this is an indictment between the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and the defendants.  Therefore, the chief of police can't bind the Commonwealth.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  It was not for the purpose, if your Honor please, of getting a self-serving statement.  I wanted the statement from the Chief; not this man's answer.
THE COURT.  Suppose, on the other hand, that the Chief had said something that might have been derogatory to a defendant.  Because he is Chief, that does not make it any--give it any probative effect; and neither as pure hearsay would it be competent.  I don't quite,--if you want it under the theory of consciousness of guilt, under what he supposed he was arrested for, I think he has been through that,--what his knowledge was.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  That was the main purpose, his knowledge, as gathered.
THE COURT.  I Will allow you to go into that the same as I allowed Mr. Moore to go into it yesterday.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I am only going to put this question and follow it up and close the incident.
THE COURT.  If there is only one question, I might allow that even though I might violate some rule of the law of evidence.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I want to get this man’s frame of mind as a result of the questions that we asked of him.
THE COURT.  I will allow you to get that, but I am a little inclined to feel that you were trying to get at the frame of mind of the Chief.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I wouldn't intimate the Chief's frame of mind.
Q. As a result of questions that were asked of you by the Chief, did you form any opinion as to why you were apprehended that night of May 5th?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not form any opinion?
A. No.
Q. You were not informed as to what the charge was?
A. I thought it was a Radical charge.
Q. You thought it was a Radical charge?
A. Yes.
Q. Then I don't understand your previous answer.  Without calling the interpreter, did you form the opinion that you were arrested because of Radical work?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you were interrogated by Stewart, did you tell Stewart the truth?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you were interrogated by the District Attorney, did you tell him the truth, or did you lie to him?
A. I did not tell him the truth.
Q. You did not tell him the truth?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Well, because I was,--I wouldn't give him all that work we had done.
Q. What is that?
A. All the work we had done to get the literature, not to name my friends to get them in trouble.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I think that is all.
If your Honor please, the District Attorney is having trouble letting a hat here.
MR. KATZMANN.  Not in getting it, but in getting the man, who has been on duty, and we have telephoned for him.  He was to be here at 9.30 this morning.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  I believe he has not the cap and coat yet.
MR KATZMANN.  Neither have I.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  We better get it through you.  When it does come, we would like the privilege of recalling this witness to testify.
THE COURT.  I think there ought not to be any difficulty on that, inasmuch as both counsel,--that is, counsel on both sides seem to be desirous of having the cap, so I think between you you might succeed in getting it.
[Conference at bench between Court and counsel.]
 

 Cross-examination.

Q. [By Mr. Katzmann.] Did you say yesterday you love a free country?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you love this country in the month of May, 1917?
A. I did not say,--I don't want to say I did not love this country.
Q. Did you love this country in the month of 1917?
A. If you can, Mr. Katzmann, if you give me that,--I could explain
Q. Do you understand that question?
A. Yes.
Q. Then will you please answer it?
A. I can't answer in one word.
Q. You can't say whether you loved the United States of America one week before the day you enlisted for the first draft?
A. I can't say in one word, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. You can't tell this jury whether you loved the country or not?
MR.  MOORE.  I object to that.
A. I could explain that, yes, if I loved--
Q. What?
A. I could explain that, yes, if I loved, if you give me a chance.
Q. I ask you first to answer that question.  Did you love this United States of America in May, 1917?
A. I can't answer in one word.
Q. Don't you know whether you did or not?
MR. MOORE.  I object, your Honor.
THE COURT.  What say?
MR. MOORE.  I object to the repetition of this question without giving the young man an opportunity to explain his attitude.
THE COURT.  That is not the usual method that prevails.  Where the question can be categorically answered by yes or no, it should be answered.  The explanation comes later. Then you can make any inquiry to the effect of giving the witness an opportunity of making whatever explanation at that time he sees fit to make, but under cross-examination counsel is entitled to get an answer either yes or no, when the question can be so answered.  You may proceed, please.
Q. Did you love this country in the last week of May, 1917?
A. That is pretty hard for me to say in one word, Mr. Katzmann.
Q. There are two words you can use, Mr. Sacco, yes or no.  Which one is it?
A. Yes.
Q. And in order to show your love for this United States of America when she was about to call upon you to become a soldier you ran away to Mexico?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY.  Wait.
THE COURT.  Did you?
Q. Did you run away to Mexico?
THE COURT.  He