RICHARD REALF sworn and examined.

 

                By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: Will you state to the committee of what country you are a native, and what your age is?

 

Answer: I am a native of England. I was born in the year 1834. I shall therefore be twenty-six next June.

 

Question: When did you first come to this country?

 

Answer: In 1854.

 

Question: Are your parents living now in England?

 

Answer: They are.

 

Question: Will you state what was the occupation in life of your father?

 

Answer: At the time I left England my father was filling the position which he now fills, namely, an officer of the English rural police.

 

Question: To what occupation had he been bred?

 

Answer: My father was a blacksmith at one time. That trade he learned himself. He was a peasant, which means an agricultural laborer.

 

Question: Will you state what brought you to the United States in 1854?

 

Answer: I had been a protégé of Lady Noell Byron, widow of Lord Byron. I had disagreed with Lady Noell Byron, on account of some private matters, which it is not necessary to explain here, but which rendered me desirous of finding some other place in which to dwell. Moreover, my instincts were democratic and republican, or, at least, anti-monarchical. Therefore I came to America.

 

Question: Had you any acquaintance in this country when yon                came over?

 

Answer: No, sir; no personal acquaintance.

 

Question: Will you say whether you formed the acquaintance of John Brown, who was recently executed in Virginia for murder and treason?

 

Answer: Yes, sir; I did form his acquaintance.

 

Question: When?

 

Answer: In the year 1857. I cannot say whether it was the last day of November or the first of December, but within two or three days of that time.

 

Question: Will you state what brought you to his acquaintance, and where it was?

 

Answer: I was residing in the city of Lawrence, Kansas, as a correspondent of the Illinois State Gazette, edited by Messrs. Bailhace & Baker. I had been, and was, a radical abolitionist. In November, 1857', John Edwin Cook, also recently executed in Virginia, came to my boarding-house, in Lawrence, bringing me an invitation from John Brown to visit him at a place called Tabor, in Iowa. There I met John Brown.

 

Question: You went with Cook?

 

Answer: I went with John E. Cook.

 

Question: Did Brown then make known to you the object of the invitation to come and see him?

 

Answer: John Brown made known to a certain, but not to any definite and detailed degree, his intentions. He stated that he purposed to make an incursion into the Southern States, somewhere in the mountainous region of the Blue Ridge and the Alleghenies.

 

Question: What was the plan and purpose of the incursion, or did he develop it?

 

Answer: At Tabor, in Iowa, no place was named.

 

Question: What were the character and object of the incursion? Did he tell that?

 

Answer: To liberate the slaves.

 

Question: Did he disclose how he proposed to effect it?

 

Answer: Not at that time.

 

Question: Did you enter into any arrangements or engagements with him in reference to it?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: State what they were.

 

Answer: I agreed to accompany him.

 

Question: Did you remain under his control or guidance? What subsequent disposition did you make of yourself, or did he make of you, after that interview at Tabor?

 

Answer: I will tell you. From Tabor, where I myself first met John Brown and the majority of the persons forming the white part of his company in Virginia, we passed across the State of Iowa, until we reached Cedar County, in that State. We started in December, 1857. It was about the end of December, 1857', or the beginning of January, 1858, when we reached Cedar County, the journey thus consuming about a month of time. We stopped at a village called Springdale, in that county, where, in a settlement principally composed of Quakers, we remained.

 

Question:: Did John Brown accompany you there?

 

Answer: John Brown accompanied us thither, but, whilst we ourselves remained there, John Brown went on East.

 

Question: Now, will you state who composed the company that Brown had assembled there, distinguishing between the whites and blacks, if there were any blacks?

 

Answer: Myself, Mr. Kagi, Mr. Cook, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Tidd, Mr. Leeman, Mr. Moffet, and Mr. Parsons, all these being whites, and Mr. Richard Richardson, a colored man, whom I met with Brown, at Tabor. These composed our company.

 

Question: How long did you remain at Springdale?

 

Answer: From the month-whether it be, I cannot now remember, the latter part of December, 1857) or the beginning of January, 1858, but from that time up until about the last week in April) a period of nearly three months.

 

Question: What was your occupation while you were there?

 

Answer: We were being drilled a part of the time, and receiving military lessons under Mr. Stevens. A part of the time I was lecturing.

 

Question: Did Brown provide for the support of the company while you were there?

 

Answer: Brown provided for the support of the company whilst we were there in this way: upon reaching there he, finding himself unable to dispose of the mules and wagons with which he transported us across the State, and unable to get the price he desired for them, left us there to board, the property named to belong to the man who kept us, a price having been agreed upon between himself and Mr. Brown.

Question: Whom did you board with?

 

Answer: With a Mr. Maxom.

 

Question: Did he keep a tavern?

 

Answer: No, sir; a private farm-house.

 

Question: You remained there, you say, until the following April?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Will you inform the committee whether, during your residence there or at any time subsequent to Brown's inviting you to join that party, you heard of a man or made the acquaintance of a man named Forbes?

 

Answer: I never made the acquaintance of Colonel Forbes. I have heard of such a man.

 

Question: Will you say whether it was expected that he should be your military instructor? I mean anything you learned from Brown on the subject.

 

Answer: Yes, sir. You did not ask me the Question:, but I may as well state the fact that during our passage across Iowa, Brown's plan in regard to an incursion into Virginia gradually manifested itself. It was a matter of discussion between us as to the possibility of effecting a successful insurrection in the mountains, some arguing that it was, some that it was not; myself thinking, and still thinking, that a mountainous country is a very fine country for an insurrection, in which I am borne out by historic evidence which it is not necessary to state now.

 

Question: Brown's plans, then, were to make an incursion somewhere into the mountainous regions of Virginia?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Did he say when he expected to effect it?

 

Answer: In that spring.

 

Question: Will you state whether the military training that he proposed for you and the company, had a reference to that incursion?

 

Answer: It was my belief that it had.

 

Question: Did he give you, in the course of conversation; any outlines or plans as to how he proposed to effect it-the mode of doing it?

 

Answer: Not during our residence in Iowa.

 

Question: You say Brown left you there. When did he return? Answer: Brown returned a day or two before the period at which we left, namely, the last week in April, 1858.

 

Question: Did he inform you or the company, in conversation, how he had been occupied during the period of his absence?

 

Answer: No, sir; and here I ought to say, which you have also omitted to ask in regard to Colonel Forbes, that whereas we expected Colonel Forbes to be our military instructor, yet, in consequence of a disagreement between himself and John Brown, the latter wrote us from the East that Forbes would not become our military instructor, and that we should not .expect him.

 

Question: Do you remember the point in the East he wrote from?

 

Answer: I do not. He used to write to his son Owen, one of the deceased persons, and in stating the number of persons comprising our company, I accidentally omitted his son. . Owen was with us.

Question: Did Brown have much correspondence with his son while he was absent.

 

Answer: No, sir; the correspondence was very rare.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. In stating what was said by Brown, I desire the witness, as much as possib1:J to give exactly what Brown himself said the words used.

 

The CHAIRMAN: Exactly. It is desirable; of course, that you should give, if you can, the exact language; or if you cannot do that, give the substance of any communication from Brown.

 

The WITNESS: I will endeavor to do so.

 

Question: What was the next movement made by the company and Brown after his return in April?

 

Answer: The next movement after his arrival was an immediate departure from Iowa into Canada, via Chicago and Detroit.

 

Question: You remained at Springdale; you say, January, February, and March, something more than three months?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Were the objects of your assembling there made known to the people around, in any way?

 

Answer: Not by myself; I cannot tell whether by others.

 

Question: Could you not learn something of it from conversations?

 

Answer: I am inclined to think that the people knew nothing at all of our movements for the reason that by some we were suspected to be Mormon emissaries.

 

Question: Did you not divest yourselves of that suspicion.

 

Answer: No, sir.

 

Question: Can you inform the committee whether there was any person or persons in that neighborhood who did know of the object of your assembling and your future plans?

 

Answer: I do believe that John Brown had given a man named Townsend; I cannot remember his first name, a member of the Society of Friends, some indirect and indefinite hints of his plan. I do also think that from the nature of a conversation which a Mr. Varny, also residing in the immediate neighborhood, and being also a Quaker, held with myself, that some one must have given him some hints in regard to the same matter; but neither of those people were evidently, from the tone of their conversation, possessed of any definite information in regard to the matter.

 

Question: How were your military trainings conducted? Where were they conducted?

 

Answer: Principally in a field behind the house of Mr. Maxom; it being generally understood in the place where we were boarding, in the vicinity and round about, that we were thus studying military tactics and being thus drilled in order to return to Kansas and pro­secute our endeavors to make Kansas a free State.

 

Question: That was the first idea?

 

Answer: That was the general understanding.

 

Question: Had you arms?

 

Answer: Yes, sir. John E. Cook had his own private arms. We had our private arms. I had my pair of Colt's revolvers.

 

Question: Did Brown furnish you with any arms?

 

Answer: No, sir, not myself, ever.

 

Question: I mean any of his company?

 

Answer: Not to my knowledge, because I suppose you will remember that I met the people comprising this company gathered together at Tabor. All of these people had been engaged in Kansas warfare. Everybody at that period in Kansas went armed, and the inference is that they were well armed before they met John Brown. Indeed, I am certain of that matter, because, in a greater or less degree, all of them had been engaged in the Kansas troubles.

 

Question: I only wanted to know whether Brown had furnished you any arms for the purpose of training.

 

Answer: No, sir.

 

Question: What part of Canada did you stop at?

 

Answer: We stopped at a town called Chatham, in Canada West.

 

By Mr. OOLLAMER:

Question: What time did you get there?

 

Answer: It must have been about April 28 or 29, 1858, I think; or perhaps the 1st or 2d of May. I cannot remember within two or three days. I recollect it was at that time, because the convention, to which we shall come presently, was held on the 10th of May; and we were there a sufficient time to allow John .Brown to write letters, about which I shall, doubtless, be asked. .

 

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: Will you state who of the company that you had at Springdale, accompanied John Brown to Chatham?

 

Answer: All of the company whom I named as having gone to Springdale and two others: a young man named George B. Gill, who resided at Springdale, who had learned of our plans, from whom I do not know, but I suppose from John Brown, inasmuch as he never manifested any desire to accompany us anywhere until the return of John Brown; and another young man, named Stewart Taylor, the latter of whom was killed at Harper's Ferry, and the former of whom, so far as I have been able to learn, was not present at the incursion.

 

Question: Where did Stewart Taylor come from?

 

Answer: I do not know.

 

Question: Did this man Richardson, the Negro, go with you to Chatham?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Was Brown's intercourse with the Negro of a character to show that he treated him as an equal and an associate?

 

Answer: It certainly was. To .prove .it, I will simply state that, having to wait twelve hours at Chicago, m order to make railroad con­nection from Chicago to Detroit, and to Canada, we necessarily had to breakfast and dine. We went into one of the hotels in order to break­fast. We took this colored man, Richardson, to table with us. The keeper of the hotel explained to us that it could not be allowed. We did not eat our breakfast. We went to another hotel, where we could      take a colored man with us and sit down to breakfast.

 

Question: Where you could enjoy your rights, I suppose?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Will you state in what way the expenses of your transportation were defrayed?

 

Answer: They were defrayed by John Brown.

Question: What was done on your arrival at Chatham?

 

Answer: Upon our arrival in Chatham, Canada West, we boarded at a hotel kept by a colored man, (I do not remember his name,) whence written (not printed) circulars were sent to certain persons east and west, for Chicago is west of Canada, inviting their attendance at a quiet convention of the friends of freedom, to be held on the day named, namely, May 10, 1858.

 

Question: Did you remain there during the intermediate time be­tween the last of April and the 10th of May; or was the convention held earlier?

 

Answer: There were two conventions. The constitutional conven­tion was held two days previous to the election of the officers. The constitution had been adopted, and then the election of the officers was held. I had forgotten that before. The constitutional convention was on the 8th of May, 1858.

 

The CHAIRMAN here submits to the witness the papers heretofore produced by Andrew Hunter, and purporting to be the minutes or "Journal of the Provisional Constitutional Convention," and of the convention to elect officers, signed respectively by "J. H. Kagi," as "secretary of the convention," and asks the following

 

Question: Do you know the handwriting of these papers?

 

Answer: I do; it is the handwriting of John Henry Kagi. (The papers are identified by the chairman placing his initials thereon.]

 

Question: It is stated in these minutes that "on motion of Mr. Delany, Mr. Brown then proceeded to state the object of the convention at length." Did you know this" Mr. Delany?"

 

Answer . Yes, sir; he was a colored doctor, residing in Chatham, Canada West.

 

Question: Do you mean a Negro when you say" colored?"

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Who was the presiding officer of this convention?

 

Answer: A man named Munroe-a preacher. .

 

Question: Where did he come from?

 

Answer: I believe the city of Detroit?

 

By Mr. COLLAMER:

Question: Was he a colored man?

 

Answer: Yes, sir; a mulatto.

 

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: Do you recollect Brown's speech, which, it is said in these minutes" developed the plan?"

 

Answer: I cannot remember his speech. I can remember certain salient points and leading ideas in his speech.

 

Question: He did make a speech?

 

Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Question: Of course you cannot remember the speech; but will you state as briefly but as exactly as you can, what he did state to be the object in view of this constitution and all that?

 

Answer: John Brown, on rising, stated that for twenty or thirty years the idea had possessed him like a passion of giving liberty to the slaves. He stated immediately thereafter, that he made a journey to England in 1851, in which year he took to the international exhi­bition at London, samples of wool from Ohio, during which period he made a tour upon the European continent, inspecting all fortifications, and especially all earth-work forts which he could find, with a view, as he stated, of applying the knowledge thus gained, with modifications and inventions of his own, to such a mountain warfare as he thereafter spoke upon in the United States. John Brown stated, moreover, that he had not been indebted to anybody for the sugges­tion of this plan; that it arose spontaneously in his own mind; that through a series of from twenty to thirty years it had gradually formed and developed itself into shape and plan. He stated that he had read all the books upon insurrectionary warfare which he could lay his hands upon-the Roman warfare; the successful opposition of the Spanish chieftains during the period when Spain was a Roman province; how with ten thousand men divided and subdivided into small companies, acting simultaneously, yet separately, they withstood the whole consolidated power of the Roman empire through a number of years. In addition to this, he said he had become very familiar with the successful warfare waged by Schamyl, the Circassian chief, against the Russians; he had posted himself in relation to the wars of Toussaint L'Overture; he had become thoroughly acquainted with the wars in Hayti and the islands round about; and from all these things he had drawn the conclusion, believing, as he stated there' he did believe, and as we all (if I may judge from myself) believed, that upon the first intimation of a plan formed for the liberation of the slaves, they would immediately rise all over the Southern States. He supposed that they would come into the mountains to join him, where he purposed to work, and that by flocking to his standard they would enable him (by making the line of mountains which cuts diagonally through Maryland and Virginia down through the Southern States into Tennessee and Alabama, the base of his operations) to act upon the plantations on the plains lying on each side of that range of mountains) and that we should be able to establish ,ourselves in the fastnesses, and if any hostile action (as would be) were taken against us, either by the militia of the separate States, or by the armies of the United States, we purposed to defeat first the militia, and next, if it were possible, the troops of the United States, and then organize the freed blacks under this provisional constitution, which would carve out for the locality of its jurisdiction all that mountainous region in which the blacks were to be established, and in which they were to be taught the useful and mechanical arts, and to be instructed in all the busi­ness of life. Schools were also to be established, and so on. That was it.

 

Question: Did he develop in that plan where he expected to get aid or assistance; who were to be his soldiers?

 

Answer: The Negroes were to constitute the soldiers. John Brown expected that all the free Negroes in the Northern States would imme­diately flock to his standard. He expected that all the slaves in the Southern States would do the same. He believed, too, that as many of the free Negroes in Canada as could accompany him, would do so.

 

Question: Was anything said in his developments of his expectations and resources after he got into the slave States of any division of sentiment between the slaveholders and non-slaveholders?

 

Answer: The slaveholders were to be taken as hostages) if they refused to let their slaves go. It is a mistake to suppose that they were to be killed; they were not to be. They were to be held as hostages for the safe treatment of any prisoners of John Brown's who might fall into the hands of hostile parties.

 

Question: As to the non-slaveholders; was there anything said about them?

 

Answer: All the non-slaveholders were to be protected. Those who would not join the organization of John Brown, but who would not oppose it, were to be protected; but those who did oppose it, were to be treated as the slaveholders themselves.

 

By Mr. DAVIS:

Question: Where did he expect in the first instance to get his resources of money and arms?

 

Answer: John Brown expected that­

 

Mr. COLLAMER. Did he say that? We are talking now of what he said in his speech.

 

Mr. DAVIS. What he stated.

 

Answer: John Brown did not make any explicit or definite state­ment in his speech at all as regarded where the money was to come from.

 

Mr. FITCH. I do not understand that the witness is limited to that speech.

The CHAIRMAN: No, sir.

 

Mr. FITCH. The understanding was that he was to state to the committee any information derived from Brown himself at any time.

 

The CHAIRMAN: It was to prevent confusion of what he did derive from Brown and from other sources, that I put the questions as I did.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. But I suppose what he is telling us now is what Brown stated in that speech on that occasion.

 

The WITNESS: I have been stating what Brown said in that speech, all this being a part thereof.

 

Mr. DAVIS. So I understood, and that is the reason I asked the Question: I did.

 

The WITNESS: It is not yet quite all of that speech.

 

Mr. DAVIS. I did not wish to break the chain.

 

The CHAIRMAN: Go on and give us all you can recollect of Brown's exposition on that occasion.

 

Answer: Thus, John Brown said that he believed, a successful incursion could be made; that it could be successfully maintained; that the several slave States could be forced (from the position in which they found themselves) to recognize the freedom of those who had been slaves within the respective limits of those States; that immediately such recognitions were made, then the places of all the officers elected under this provisional constitution became vacant, and new elections were to be made. Moreover, no salaries were to be paid to the office­holders under this constitution. It was purely out of that which we supposed to be philanthropy-love for the slave. Moreover, it is a mistake to suppose, as Cook in his confession has stated-and I now get away from John Brown's speech-that at the period of that convention the people present took an oath to support that constitution. They did no such thing. This Dr. Delany of whom I have spoken, proposed, immediately the convention was organized, that an oath should be taken by all who were present, not to divulge any of the proceedings that might transpire; whereupon .John Brown rose and stated his objections to such an oath. He had himself conscientious scruples against taking an oath, and all he requested was a promise that any person who should thereafter divulge any of the proceedings that might transpire, agreed to forfeit the protection which that organization could extend over him.

 

Mr. DAVIS. If the witness has concluded his recollection in relation to what Brown stated­

 

The WITNESS: No, sir; I have not. John Brown stated in that convention, in the speech he made, that there were a great number of rich people all over the free States who, he doubted not, would assist 11im. He stated that he had some rich friends in the free States who had assisted him, and who had promised further to assist him, but John Brown did not disclose their names, being too profound and sagacious a man to do so.

 

Question: Did he say, do you recol1ect, that the friends to whom he referred had promised aid, or that he expected it only?

 

Answer: That they had assisted him in some degree; that the:' had promised to assist him further.

 

By Mr. COLLAMER:

Question: Did he state that those people understood this-his plan?

 

Answer: No, sir; he did 110t state so explicitly, but that was the idea which he conveyed to us. In order to render that answer intelligible, I should say that John Brown had, from the time he went to Kansas, devoted his whole being, mental, moral, and physical, all that he had and was, to the extinction of slavery. He stated that he only went to Kansas in order to gain a footing for the furtherance of this matter. He stated that explicitly and emphatically.

 

Question: That that was his private purpose?

 

Answer: Yes, sir; that that was his private purpose; and he stated that, having left his wife and children and home, these friends had assisted him to prosecute his designs against slavery in Kansas first, and next generally in his enterprises in the cause of freedom.

 

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: Have you gone through with your recollections of Brown's exposition to the convention?

 

Answer: I have, except that if any questions should be asked me in regard thereto, they might suggest certain things to me which I cannot now remember without those questions. I have stated as much as I can, of my own recollection, remember.

 

Question: Will you tell us this: was there any person belonging to Canada in that convention who took any part in the discussion of John Brown's plan, after his exposition?

 

Answer: Yes, sir; Dr. Delany was one of the prominent disputants, or debaters.

 

Question: Will you state, as far as you can recollect, anything that fell from Delany showing a coincidence of purpose with John Brown?

 

Answer: The whole tenor of Dr. Delany's speeches was to convey the idea to John Brown that he might rely upon all the colored people in Canada to assist him.

 

By Mr. DAVIS:

Question: Were there any Canadians other than Negroes? Answer: No, sir; not one.

 

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: Have you any reason to know whether the purposes of the convention, or the purposes ultimately disclosed in the convention, were known to the white people around you there in Chatham?

 

Answer: I am confident that they were not.

 

Question: Was the convention held in the presence of an audience or in secret?

 

Answer: The convention was held with closed doors, all other persons present excepting Brown's original party being colored men.

 

Question: And Canadian Negroes?

 

Answer: Yes, sir, Canadian Negroes.

 

Question: Yon have stated that in traveling from Tabor across Iowa to Springdale, you were about a month engaged in it, and that John Brown conducted the expedition and defrayed the expenses, and that he left you then, and left his mules, &c., in pledge for the expenses of the party. Did he tell you or the company of the object of his going eastward?

 

Answer: Yes, sir. He had two purposes in going to the East; one to secure the services of Colonel Forbes, and bring him on, in order to instruct us. Another purpose was to secure funds.

 

Question: How do you mean "to secure funds?"

 

Answer: To secure funds to enable him to prosecute his business.

 

Question: How was he to get them?

 

Answer: I do not know; he did not state. It was to collect funds. Here I ought to state, inasmuch as it may be of use during this examination that John Brown was a man who would never state more than it was absolutely necessary for him to do. None of his most intimate associates, and I was one of the most intimate, was possessed of more than barely sufficient information to enable Brown to attach such com­panion to him; and none of us were cognizant of more than the general plan of his design until the time we reached Chatham, Canada West.

By Mr. DAVIS:

Question: Have you, from Brown or other sources, any means of informing us where the money and arms were expected to be obtained?

Answer: No, sir; I have not, except to say this-and I am glad that the Question: is put--that a certain number of arms had been placed in the hands of John Brown by Dr. Howe, or which it was supposed had thus been placed, by Dr. Howe, of Boston. Dr. Howe was the Massachusetts representative of the national Kansas committee, a committee which received contributions and made collections to be applied to the assistance of the free State settlers in Kansas during the troubles in that Territory. Afterwards, on account of disagreement, the Massachusetts committee withdrew from the national committee, and had received back a certain quantity of arms which it, Massachusetts, had purchased and thrown into the general granary, so to speak.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. Where were those arms, do you know?

 

The WITNESS: They had been at Tabor, in Iowa.

 

Mr. DAVIS: (to the witness.) You were going on to say something. What was it?

 

The WITNESS: Dr. Howe, as the representative of Massachusetts, immediately following the disagreement, withdrew the control of those arms from the national committee, and had therefore himself control over them.

 

The CHAIRMAN: But the arms, I understand, still remained at Tabor.

 

The WITNESS: I do not know whether they did or not. I cannot tell, inasmuch as when I reached Tabor John Brown had made all his arrangements for immediate passage across Iowa.

 

Mr. DAVIS. The witness was interrupted in what he was going on to state. I desire him to continue it.

 

The WITNESS: I do not know that Dr. Howe placed those arms in John Brown's possession, but I supposed so, for a reason which I will explain immediately. Within a day or two following the convention at Chatham, John Brown said to me that he had received a copy of a letter written by Senator Henry Wilson) of Massachusetts, from-Wash­ington city, to Dr. Howe, of Boston. Brown then stated to me that Colonel Forbes, maddened by the failure to receive money from .John Brown, as had been agreed on according to Forbes's statement, and exasperated by the dreadful condition in which his family were, or in which he claimed that they were, in Paris, had threatened to make disclosures of Brown's plan, unless Brown forwarded money to him. Forbes was cognizant of Brown's plan, for the reason that at one period he had agreed, as I learned, to head the expedition; but a rup­ture occurring between him and Brown, he, being possessed of Brown's plans, threatened to divulge them, and did divulge them, or so much of them as was necessary to put people on the alert. He divulged them, as I say, to Senator Wilson, in this city.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. That is what Brown told you.

 

The WITNESS: .Yes, sir; that is what Brown told me. To explain it a little more, I should perhaps say that Brown had written to us whilst we were at Springdale, that Forbes and himself had disagreed. On the occasion of which I have just spoken, at Chatham, Brown said to me that Colonel Forbes, maddened by the non-receipt of moneys which he had expected to receive, had threatened to divulge Brown's plans, and had done so by coming to Washington, and stating to Senator Henry Wilson, of Massachusetts, that Brown had a purpose in view of effecting an insurrection in the Southern States. Senator Wilson, im­mediately upon receipt of the news, said that he did not think any man, or any company of men, could be wild enough and mad enough to do such a thing; but knowing the character of John Brown, and supposing-

 

The CHAIRMAN: Are you giving this as what Brown told you?

 

The WITNESS: I have given that which Brown said to me, and now I am making a statement in regard to what Henry, Wilson said.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. What Brown told you Mr. Wilson said?

 

The WITNESS: What Brown told me he said. Thus, then: Forbes has made this revelation to Wilson, whether definite and in detail I do not know, but he had made a revelation of that kind. Immediately upon receipt thereof, Senator Wilson sat down and wrote to Dr. Howe that, understanding or supposing that arms belonging to the Massa­chusetts committee, which Howe had withdrawn from the national committee, had been placed by his, Howe's, hands in care of John Brown, he, Wilson, requested him, Howe, to withdraw from John Brown's hands all command over those arms, lest in a moment of mad­ness, he might possibly put into operation such a scheme. This letter was written by Senator Wilson to Dr. Howe, of Massachusetts. All along, I say Dr. Howe, but I cannot swear that it was Dr. Howe; but if it was not he, it was Sanborn. Whilst I have one thought out of ten that it might be Sanborn, I have nine out of ten that it was Howe. It was one of those two men, and Howe I believe.

 

Mr. DOOLITTLE. I think there was one sentence you did not finish when you were interrupted by another Question: You began a sentence) stating that Mr. .Wilson said that he did not think any man or any company of men could be found to go into such a scheme. Please finish it.

 

The WITNESS: But lest they should be mad enough to do it, he Wilson, requested him, Howe, to withdraw from Brown's hands those arms, so as to place it out of his power to do the thing. A copy of this letter, thus written by Wilson to Howe, was forwarded by Howe to Brown, at Chatham, and in compliance with the request made to Howe by Wilson, he did withdraw those arms from Brown; that is, he made a requisition on Brown to deliver them up, stating that he withdrew from him the carte blanche, or power of attorney, or whatever it was he had over them. Whether or not he afterwards rein­stated Brown in the possession of those arms, I cannot say. That is so much as relates to that matter.

 

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: You have spoken of the contents of the copy of a letter from Wilson to Howe; will you state how you derived knowledge of those contents?

 

Answer: John Brown read those letters to me.

 

Question: Howe's letter to him, and Wilson's letter to Howe? Answer: Yes, sir.

 

Mr. DAVIS. Did the letter of Senator Wilson disclose the fact that Forbes was enraged?

 

Answer: Only that Forbes had made such a statement to Wilson.

 

The CHAIRMAN; You have stated to us, as I understand, that Brown read to you the copy of Wilson's letter to Howe, which he alleged Howe had sent to him. Now, will you give to the committee, as nearly as your memory will allow the contents of Wilson's letter to Howe?

 

The WITNESS: I can but remember the things of which I have spoken in regard to it, the contents of his letter being that Forbes had made such a revelation to him, Wilson.

 

The CHAIRMAN: What revelation?

 

The WITNESS: A revelation that John Brown proposed to commit an incursion on the Southern States. I stated before that I did not know whether Forbes gave any definite or detailed information in regard to the plan or not; because, if he did so, Wilson did not state it.

 

The CHAIRMAN: We do not want your inferences, but we desire you to state, as nearly as you can, the contents of the letter from Wilson to Howe, and the request which you say was contained in it.

 

The WITNESS: The request was based upon the statement made by Forbes to Wilson, and Wilson either knowing or supposing, I cannot tell which­

 

The CHAIRMAN: We do not want anything about that. Did the letter itself say what statement Forbes had made?

 

The WITNESS: I cannot tell whether it ran in. so many words or not, but it said that John Brown had designs against the Southern States, calculated to effect a rupture between the free and the slave States, and in order to stop it he wrote.

 

By Mr. DAVIS:

Question: Did Brown's knowledge of Forbes's intention to divulge his secret come from the copy of the letter received by him from Dr. Howe, as having been sent to Dr. Howe by Senator Wilson, or did he know it anterior to that?

Answer: He knew previously to that, that Forbes had threatened to do these things, in several letters.

 

Question: And now he was made aware that he had done it?

 

Answer: Yes, sir. Now, he was made aware that Forbes had done so.

 

                By the CHAIRMAN:

Question: Do you know whether Brown remained in possession of the arms spoken of by Senator Wilson and Dr. Howe, or whether he afterwards got them into his possession?

 

Answer: I do not know; for the reason that a very short time following the receipt of that letter by John Brown, I left the party, and have since had no connection with them.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. What was the occasion of your leaving the party? For what ostensible purpose did 'you leave?

 

The WITNESS: I will tell you.

 

The CHAIRMAN: Before that, I want to ask what became of the members of the convention when they adjourned.

 

The WITNESS: The answer to that will include the answer to the other Question:

 

The CHAIRMAN: After the convention adjourned, what became of those members of the convention that had been with you under military drill at Springdale, including yourself?

 

Answer: Immediately following the adjournment of the convention, a portion of the original company went from Chatham, in Canada, to Cleveland, in Ohio, in the United States.

 

Question: Who went there?

 

Answer: I cannot now remember all the party who went there; but I know that Cook was one who went; I know that Stevens was one who went; that Tidd was another; that G. B. Gill was another; that Stewart Taylor was another; that Owen Brown was another; and I think they were all.

 

Question: Were you with them?

 

Answer: No, sir; but very shortly afterwards, myself, the colored man Richard Richardson, and another colored man, whose name I cannot recollect, residing in Canada, and who had agreed to accompany us, went from Chatham to Cleveland. In addition to these persons, I now remember that Mr. Leeman, one of the persons killed at Harper's Ferry, went with me, too. Our departure, by which I mean the departure of those who were with me, as contradistinguished from those that went before, was about two weeks later than the departure of the first company.

 

Question: Then you remained at Chatham for two weeks after the adjournment?

 

Answer: About that time.

 

Question: Then you went to Cleveland?

 

Answer: We went to Cleveland. Now, I ought to say here that those persons comprising the first party who went from Chatham to Cleveland did not remain in the city. They went out into the surrounding country and procured work, John Brown's means being so limited that he could not pay their board. I have not stated what John Brown did yet. He went east, leaving me to go on to Cleveland, and there await the receipt of letters from him from the East, and his own return from that quarter. John Brown went east. He went to North Elba, where his family resided. He wrote to me from North Elba that he would shortly return. Afterwards he went to Boston. He again wrote me from Boston that he had been delayed, but would shortly return. None of John Brown's letters to me, of which I think I received during my stay in Cleveland three, contained over four lines; there from you may judge how much John Brown allowed his people to be cognizant of his plans.

 

Question: Have you preserved those letters?

Answer: No, sir; I destroyed them a long time ago. Well, John Brown returned to Cleveland from the East in the beginning of June, 1858, having, perhaps, been absent East a month from his departure from Chatham, Canada West. On his returning to Cleveland, those of our company who had been out in the country procuring work returned to Cleveland to the hotel where John Brown came, and where I was boarding. I ought, however, now that I remember it, to state that John H. Kagi did not go there to Cleveland with the first party or with myself; but he went to a town called Hamilton, in Canada West, and there, being (among his other accomplishments, for he was a very accomplished man) a practical printer, he privately superintended the printing of the constitution adopted at the convention. Kagi reached Cleveland a few days previous to the arrival of Brown from the East. We were all united there, consequently, once again. John Brown arrived from the East. John Brown had not procured money. He had probably about $300 altogether. He had not enough to pay the necessary expenses for the printing of the copies of the constitution-in Canada. He had barely enough to give those who accompanied him a sufficient amount of money to enable them to return back to their different places of abode. Mr. Kagi, John Brown, and Mr. Tidd went back to Kansas. John E. Cook received his quantum of the money. I do not know whither he went. Stewart Taylor received his, and went to Ann Arbor, Michigan. G. B. Gill and Mr. Stevens returned to Springdale, Iowa, the brother of Mr. Gill residing there, and Mr. Stevens having formed some connections which induced him to return. I was to go on to New York City.

 

Question: Did you go by direction of anybody?

 

Answer: I went­

 

Question: What sent you there, or who sent you there?

 

Answer: John Brown sent me to New York city for this purpose: Knowing that Forbes had made these revelations about which I have spoken, and knowing, too, that it incapacitated him for the time being from prosecuting this plan, he desired me to go on to New York, somehow or other procure an introduction to Forbes; and he being an Englishman and I being an Englishman, he thought we might presently establish mutual good relations; that by ingratiating myself into his esteem, I might ultimately be able to possess myself, acting for Brown, of that obnoxious correspondence held by Forbes, written by Brown to him, in which Brown had developed his plans. For that purpose, I went on to New York, and I ought, in justice to myself to say, that I went with the intention of securing that correspondence; for at that period, though I had not been at all satisfied with the con­dition of the negroes in Canada, I was still an abolitionist, and I went to New York city purposing to possess myself of this correspondence. I arrived in New York city­

 

The CHAIRMAN: Stop a moment. What were you to go with the correspondence, if you got it?

 

Answer: Return it to .John Brown, so that when Forbes was called upon, (as Brown supposed would be the case,) to substantiate his statements, he should not have the means of doing so. I went to New York. In New York City, I met, for the first time, with a book called "Limitations of Human Responsibility," written by Dr. Wayland, a philosophic author. I had thought a great deal about human respon­sibility and my own responsibility, perhaps, indeed, a little too much; but I had never thought anything in regard to the limits of it, and that book taught me that there were certain things which I might thoroughly believe myself, but which I had no right to enforce nolens volens on my neighbor, and it set me pondering on a new train of ideas. I did not see Colonel Forbes in New York City. I cannot recollect whether I made any attempt to see him or not. What I know is that I did not see him. I met in New York City with Judge Arny, examined before your committee the other day, with Thaddeus Hyatt, a mutual friend of ours. To Judge Arny I made a statement of Brown's purpose; not, however, in detailed terms, but I said to him that Brown had in view a project of liberating the slaves in the South. I stated the same to Thaddeus Hyatt. Because the lapse of time is so great, and because I have had so many things passing through my brains since, I have forgotten whether I held any conversation with those men beyond making that simple revelation. I know that I went to Eng­land; I know that Judge Arny strongly advised me, instead of con­necting myself with any such wild movement, to get married, which he thought would most effectually quiet me. I went to England. Cook, in his confession, states that I went to England for the purpose of procuring assistance for John Brown. I did not. I went to England; I wanted to see my father and my mother. I was home-sick. I did very probably say, indeed I know I have often said to Cook, during my acquaintance with him, that England would be the proper place in which to raise money for abolition purposes. I do not know how Brown became cognizant of my departure for England, or Cook either, except in this wise: Arny, knowing I was going to England, I having consulted him in regard to it, and he having advised me, and assisted me to do so, I suppose that on his return to Kansas, he must have told Brown and Kagi, and the rest of them who were there. I saw a statement in a paper, I do not remember what paper, but sometime ago, I saw a statement that the internal evidence of the letters of Brown and his friends plainly revealed the fact that, though they could trace my departure for England, they could not learn any­thing of me or my movements since. That, therefore, is evidence that I was not collecting money for them in England, or that if I did, they did not get it; which, so far as implicating me is concerned, amounts to about the same thing. Well, I went to England­

 

Mr. COLLAMER. Now, stop. There is no use of pursuing this any further, unless the witness had further connection with Brown. Had you any further connection with Brown?

 

Answer: No, sir; I knew nothing at all about him.

 

Mr. DAVIS. Let the witness proceed, because it has been alleged that he went to England to lecture for the purpose of raising money. The best way in which he can satisfy not only the committee, but others, in relation to what he went there for, is to tell his story.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. It has nothing to do with this inquiry before the committee, but I shall not interpose.

 

The CHAIRMAN: Let us have the whole ground.

 

Mr. COLLA MER. Very well, if you desire it.

 

The WITNESS: I went to England. I lectured in England. I lectured, among other things, on temperance-principally on that subject. Among other things, too, I lectured on the literature, liberty, &c., of the United States. I was an abolitionist at the time, too. I never, during the period of my sojourn in England, collected, or endeavored to collect, a single cent of money for any purpose whatever. I was paid for lecturing; and" the laborer is worthy of his hire," and I put that money in my pocket. Then I went to France. As I stated just now, I had witnessed a great discrepancy between the actual condition of the Negroes in Canada and the statements which I had read in regard to their condition in Canada­

 

Mr. DOOLITTLE. One word in relation to that I have no objection to its going down as far as he wants to exculpate himself from any allegation that he has collected money and misapplied it. Any personal explanation I have no objection to; but then, to lumber up the record with giving his peculiar views about one thing or another which does appear on our investigation, seems to me to be improper.

 

The WITNESS: No, sir; but I will not be one minute longer, if you will permit me.

 

Mr. COLLAMER. That might lead to considerable inquiry and perhaps cross-examination on that point, if you desire to go into it.