PAROLE CONSIDERATION HEARING
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
BOARD OF PRISON TERMS
In The Matter of The Life Term Parole Consideration Hearing of:
CHARLES MANSON
CDC NUMBER B - 33920
CALIFORNIA STATE PRISON
CORCORAN, CALIFORNIA
TUESDAY
APRIL 21, 1992
1332 HOURS
MEMBERS PRESENT
Ron Koenig, Board Comissioner, Presiding
Joseph Aceto, Board Commissioner
Cleo Brown, Deputy Board Commissioner
ALSO PRESENT
Charles Manson, Inmate
Stephen Kay, Deputy District Attorney County of Los Angeles
P R O C E E D I N G S
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: These hearings are
being taped, Mr. Manson, so if you would answer up so that it will
be recorded, please.
This is a subsequent parole consideration hearing for Charles
Manson, B-33920. Received California Department of Corrections on
April the 22nd, 1971 pursuant to Penal Code Section 1168 for
violation of Section 187; California Penal Code, first degree murder,
counts one through seven and 182.1/187, conspiracy to commit
murder, count eight, stayed; Los Angeles County case number
A-252156.
On February the 2nd, 1977, this sentence was changed being case
number A-252156 from death to life pursuant to Court of Appeal.
The prisoner was additionally received on December the 13th, 1971
for violation of P.C. 187, first degree murder, concurrent with prior
term, Los Angeles County case number 8267861, count one.
Counts two and three of case number A-267861 for violation of
P.C. 182.1/187/211 and 187, conspiracy to commit murder and
robbery and first degree murder were stayed.
The controlling minimum eligible parole date is December - was
December 13th, 1978.
Today's date is April the 22nd, 1971 [sic]. The time is now 1332
hours and we are at the Corcoran State Prison.
For purposes - participants in today's hearing are Commissioners
Koenig and Aceto and Deputy Commissioner Brown. Representing -
the prisoner has declined an attorney, a state- represented
attorney or an attorney of his own. Representing the people of the
County of Los Angeles is Stephen Kay. We also have several
members of the news media attending the hearing today and the
CNPR and assistant CNPR, and we have an observer in the room.
For purposes of identification we're going to go around the room,
state our first name, last name and why we are here. I want only
participants in the hearing to participate in this.
I am Ron Koenig. I'll start and I'll go to my right. Mr. Manson, when
we come to you would you also give your C.D.C. number. Okay.
I am Ron Koenig, K - O - E - N - I - G. and I'm Commissioner for the
Board of Prison Terms.
BOARD COMMISSIONER ACETO: Good afternoon. Joe Aceto, A - C -
E - T - O. Commissioner, Board of Prison Terms.
DEPUTY BOARD COMMISSIONER BROWN: Cleo Brown, B- R - O - W
- N. Deputy Commissioner, Board of Prison Terms.
MR. KAY: Okay. I'm Stephen Kay, Deputy District Attorney of Los
Angeles County.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Mr. Manson?
INMATE MANSON: Charles Manson, inmate, B-33920.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Would you spell your
last name please?
INMATE MANSON: M - A - N - S - U - N.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Thank you. Today, Mr.
Manson, the panel from the Board of Prison Terms that you see
before you will once again consider your suitability for parole,
Certain things we have to go through, so let me go through this, if
you will please.
INMATE MANSON: Uh-huh,
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: And we have a
procedure that we follow, If you follow that it will make it much
easier on all of us.
The - you've had nine prior hearings. Let me explain the process so
you know what's going on, The hearing is basically broken down
into three areas. The first area is the instant offense and I'll
incorporate that instant offense.
And then I'll give you - and read the instant offense - and then I'll
give you the opportunity to make corrections or additions to the
instant offense, Then I'll talk about your prior criminality -
INMATE MANSON: I don't understand instant defense.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Instant. That's the
offense that you're in here for, The murders -
INMATE MANSON: Instant?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes.
INMATE MANSON: Offense?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes. Offenses that
you're in here for. We'll then go to your social factors and your
prior criminality and then we'll go to the second part of the hearing
which is your post-conviction factors and your psychiatric
evaluation. That will be handled by Deputy Commissioner Brown on
my far right.
The third area of the hearing are your parole plans and
Commissioner Aceto will handle your parole plans.
From there we go to questions by any one of the Commissioners
regarding any part of the hearing, and then questions by the
District Attorney. The District Attorney will pose the questions to
the panel and when you answer his questions would you please
answer the panel.
Do you understand what's going on here so far?
INMATE MANSON: Yes. I have a couple questions.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: All right. It's alright. Let
me finish and then you can ask. We'll then go to closing
statements. The first closing statement will be by the District
Attorney and then you'll have the opportunity for the final closing
statement. We will then recess. We'll make a decision and call you
back. Everybody will clear the room when we recess, make a
decision. We'll call you back and we'll read into the record that
decision.
There are certain rights you are afforded, Mr. Manson. You were
notified of the hearing. I saw where you were notified, however
you refused to sign the notification. Also, you had an opportunity
to review your central file and I don't know whether you did or not.
Did you review your central file?
INMATE MANSON: I've been checking this thing out that I'm sent
here.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. All right, good.
You also have a right to appeal the decision within ninety days of
receiving that decision.
You have a right to an impartial panel, Mr. Manson. Do you have
any problems with the three representatives from the Board of
Prison Terms you see before you today?
INMATE MANSON: No, not at all.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Thank you. You'll
receive a tentative written decision today. The decision will be
effective in approximately sixty days after the Board of Prison
Terms' review process has taken place.
You are not required, Mr. Manson, to discuss the matter with the
panel if you do not wish to. But you must keep in mind that the
Board of Prison Terms' panel accepts as true the Court findings in
the case, the fact that you are guilty of these murders. Are you
going to talk to the panel today and answer questions?
INMATE MANSON: Yes. Yes, sir.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Would you raise your
right hand as best as possible. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
the testimony you give today will be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth?
INMATE MANSON: Yes, sir.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Thank you. Okay, at
this time I'm going to incorporate the instant offense from the
decision held on December the 1st, 1982, pages two through six.
INMATE MANSON: I don't have that.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. I'm going to read
it to you so you can - if you would listen to- and then I'll give you
opportunity to make corrections or additions to the instant offense.
INMATE MANSON: I'm a little nervous.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. Just settle down
because it's very informal and we want you to relax as we go
through this. Are you still - you're nervous?
INMATE MANSON: Yes. Yes, yes, very. I've been a long time sitting
in that cell -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Well, we have a lot of
people who -
INMATE MANSON: - I'm not used to people that much.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. Let me read the
instant offense. If you'll listen please -
DEPUTY BOARD COMMISSIONER BROWN: Mr. Chairman? Mr.
Chairman?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes.
DEPUTY BOARD COMMISSIONER BROWN: we need to make a
correction. The date is the -- April 21st.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Excuse me, The date
today is April the 21st, 1992. Thank you.
Shortly before midnight on August - I'm reading from the second -
third page - second page of the Board report dated 12/01/82.
Shortly before midnight on August 8, 1969 the prisoner informed his
crime partners that now is the time for helter skelter. The crime
partners were directed to accompany Charles Watson to carry out
the orders given by the prisoner. The crime partners at the time
were Linda Cabastian
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Kasabian.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Kasabian, Susan Atkins
and Patricia Krenwinkel. As the crime partners were in the car
getting ready to leave the area, the prisoner informed them, "you
girls know what I mean," something to which he instructed them to
leave a sign. Crime partner Watson drove directly to 10050 Selio -
Selio [phonetic spelling] Drive where he stopped the car. Linda
Kasabian held three knives and one gun during the trip. Watson
then cut the overhead telephone wires at the scene and parked
the vehicle.
INMATE MANSON: Excuse me. Where we getting this from?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: This is from the Board
report dated 12/01/82. Do you have a copy of that?
INMATE MANSON: No, I don't. Who - whose signature's on the end
of that?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: This is a Board report.
This is the hearing that was held at that particular time -
INMATE MANSON: Uh-huh.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: - and this was the
reading of the instant offense at that particular time.
INMATE MANSON: That sounds like a book.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Well, if you'll listen and
then you can make corrections.
INMATE MANSON: Yes. Okay.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay?
INMATE MANSON: Yes.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: All right. Crime partner
Atkins and Krenwinkel had been in the back seat with Linda
Kasabian, the passenger in the right front seat. Watson then
carried some [inaudible] over the hill and to the outer premises of
10050 Selio Drive.
The vehicle containing victim Stephen Parent [phonetic spelling]
approached the gate opening into the street. Watson stopped him
at gunpoint and Parent stated, "please don't hurt me, I won't say
anything.' Watson shot Parent five times and turned off the ignition
of his car.
All of the crime partners then proceeded to the house where
Watson cut a window screen. Linda Kasabian acted as a lookout
while another female crime partner entered the residence through
an open window and admitted the other crime partners.
Within the residence the prisoner's crime partners, without
provocation, logic or reason, murdered Abigail Anne Folger by
inflicting a total of 28 multiple stab wounds on her body. Victim
Wachezski - excuse me - victim -
MR. KAY: Voitek [phonetic spelling]
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Voitek, count two, was
killed by multiple stab wounds. A gunshot wound to his left back
and multiple forced trauma of blunt nature to the head. Victim
Sharon Tate Polanski was killed with multiple stab wounds. Victim
Jay Sebring was killed by multiple stab wounds.
On August the 10th, 1969, the prisoner drove his crime partners to
a location near the residence of victim Leo and Rosemary LaBanca
- LaBianca. The prisoner entered the LaBianca home alone at
gunpoint and tied up the victims.
He impressed them with the statement that they would not be
harmed and that a robbery was taking place. He then returned to
the vehicle containing his crime partners and then directed them to
enter that residence and kill the occupants. He informed them not
to notify the victims that they would be killed.
Crime partner Charles Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Van
Houten, then entered the residence and the prisoner drove away
from the scene. The crime partners entered the residence and in a
callous manner killed Leo LaBianca by inflicting multiple stab wounds
to his neck and abdomen. Rosemary LaBianca was killed by multiple
stab wounds which were inflicted to the neck and trunk.
The crime partners carved the wood war - the word war on the Leo
LaBianca's stomach with the use of a carving fork. At both of the
above murder scenes, the prisoner's crime partners used blood of
their victims to write the words.
Under case number A-267861, the prisoner was received into the
institution on December 13th, 1971 for violation of first degree
murder concurrent with prior term. The pistol, knives and swords
were used in the following crimes which the prisoner committed
with crime partners Bira Alstea- how do you pronounce that?
MR. KAY: Beausoleil.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Beausoleil, and Atkins
and Grogan and Davis. The prisoner directed the crime partners to
go to the home of victim Gary Allen Highman -
MR. KAY: Hinman.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: - and have him sign
over his property. The crime partners followed the prisoner's
directions and on July 26th, 1969 they contacted the prisoner from
the Hinman residence. Prisoner and Davis then went to the Hinman
home and the prisoner struck Hinman with a sword severing a part
of the right ear and causing a laceration to the left side of his face
from his ear to his mouth. The prisoner and Davis then drove away
from the crime scene in Hinman's automobile.
On July 27th, 1969 after suffering three days of tortuous
treatment, Hinman was killed by a stab wound through the heart
which was inflicted by Beausoleil.
When Hinman was found in the Topanga Canyon home on July 31st,
1969 he had been stabbed through the heart in addition to
suffering a stab wound in the chest, a gash on the top of his head,
a gash behind the right ear, and a laceration on the left side of his
face which cut his ear and cheek.
This concludes the reading of the instant offense. Do you have any
additions or corrections, Mr. Manson, to the-
INMATE MANSON: I'd like to know who signed that, who put their
name on it.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Nobody put their name
on it. This was a hearing conducted in 1982. Your hearing was
conducted at that particular time and that's the reading of the
instant offense as taken from the probation officeris report at the
time of the trial that you had. Do you have any corrections or
additions to that?
INMATE MANSON: No. We could correct the whole thing because
it's basically hearsay.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. Do you remember
what I said at the beginning of the hearing?
INMATE MANSON: Yes.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: I said that we accept
as true the court findings in the case. The fact that you were
found guilty and you are guilty of those particular murders. If
there's any change or anything you wanted to say about -
INMATE MANSON: So all that is reality to you?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes. Yes, we accept it
as true -
INMATE MANSON: And that - and either - even it never happened
it's still reality to you?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes, because you were
found guilty by a court of law.
INMATE MANSON: And - okay - and all the things that in that
courtroom that went through that courtroom is reality to you?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes. Okay. We accept
as true -
INMATE MANSON: Now let me - let me just say one thing.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay.
INMATE MANSON: Nine black Muslims and three Mexicans signed a
writ that said I was Jesus Christ. Is that reality to you as well?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: I didn't read that in the
Board report.
INMATE MANSON: Oh, well it's in the record. I mean, you know.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Well, we've read - we
have your C-file and all the reports were made available to us.
INMATE MANSON: Okay.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: And I think we know
most about, but that's the reason for the hearing, Mr. Manson -
INMATE MANSON: Okay, okay.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: - that you can bring
these things out if you wish.
INMATE MANSON: I think if you'll look in your own minds for every
point, there's a counterpoint. For every red, there's a black. For
every black, there's a red.
In other words t what you're making me into in your reports so that
you can write your books and do your Rambo trips and make your
movies for public entertainment, is not really what happened and
what happened could have been explained but if you will allow me
to call a witness?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No. We do not allow
witnesses in here -
INMATE MANSON: I mean, it's within the panel. I'd like to question
that man in front of the panel.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No. We do not allow
that, Mr. Manson. We have a procedure that we follow.
INMATE MANSON: Okay. All right.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Now, if you want to tell
about the crime -
INMATE MANSON: Okay.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: - then go ahead and
tell about the crime. Otherwise [inaudible] -
INMATE MANSON: Then I will say it and then if it isn't true, he can
interrupt it through you, and then we can talk through you. Is that
legal?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: You may- you may -
[inaudible]
INMATE MANSON: It says here that I can call witnesses on this
paper here.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No.
INMATE MANSON: This says I got these rights to do that.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No, you do not. If you
would please respond to me there - any additions or corrections to
the instant offense that I just read?
INMATE MANSON: Yes. I didn't tie anybody up.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay.
INMATE MANSON: I was never on the scene where anyone was
killed. I think the law says you can only keep me 17 years or 18
years if I was never on the scene when anyone was killed. I was
never on the crime scene of anything.
The closest I came to the crime scene is I cut Hinman's ear off in a
fight over some money because the Frenchman - he wouldn't pay
the Frenchman and I told him, why don't he be a man about himself
and pay his debts? And we had a fight.
So to - in order to hook me up to that they say well, they tortured
the dude three days. I was gone from that scene of that crime for
three days. I was never on the scene of any crime. I never told
anyone directly to do - to go anywhere and do anything.
I always said - and mostly it come from the witness stand - I said
like, you know what to do, you have a brain of your own, don't ask
me what to do, I've just got out of prison, I don't know what's
going on out here. I hadn't been out of jail long enough to really
get a perspective of what was happening.
I just was released from McNeil Island and I was in Mexico City
prison before that and I was in Terminal Island before that. So I
really wasn't up on the sixties as much as you all make me out to
be. I had just got out of prison.
Most of those people, I - like Kasabian, I knew her two weeks. I
had seen her two or three times around the ranch. I had never
even been with the broad, man, that much, you know. People came
around me because I played a lot of music and I was fairly free and
open because I really didn't know, honestly.
Everyone says that I was the leader of those people, but I was
actually the follower of the children because, like I never grew up.
I've been in jail most of this time, so I stayed in the minds of the
children. And I'm pretty much a street person so violence is no new
thing to me. And people getting hurt around me is no new thing.
I've lived in prison all my life. That happens all the time. I've always
walked on a line. In Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, all across this
country. Cook County jail, Chicago, it's always about fighting.
That's part of everyday life where I live, you know.
So, a lot of the things that people were doing were just their own
little episodes that they get involved in and they looked at me like I
was something like a friend or a brother or a father or someone
that understood because I learned in prison that you can't really
tell any one anything because everybody's got their own
perspective. And all you can do is reflect people back at
themselves and let them make up their own mind about things.
So, when Beausoleil come to me with, could I be a brother? I told
him certainly, you know. So we were like in a little brotherhood
together, like we didn't lie to each other. And whatever he said do,
I would do. And whatever I said do, he would do.
But as far as lining up someone for some kind of helter skelter trip,
you know, that's the District Attorney's motive. That's the only
thing he could find for a motive to throw up on top of all that
confusion he had.There was no such thing in my mind as helter
skelter. Helter skelter was a song and it was a nightclub - we
opened up a little after-hours nightclub to make some money and
play some music and do some dancing and singing and play some
stuff to make some money for dune buggies to go out in the
desert.
And we called the club Helter Skelter. It was a helter skelter club
because we would be there and when the cops would come, we'd
all melt into other dimensions because it wasn't licensed to be
anything in particular. And that was kind of like a speakeasy back
in the moonshine days behind the movie set.
And I'm an outlaw. That's - they're right there, you know, and I'm a
gangster and I'm bad and I'm all the things that I want to be. I'm
pretty free within myself. I cut people and I shoot them and I do
whatever I have to do to survive in the world I live in. But that has
nothing to do with me breaking the line.
Let me explain something about the penitentiary in my mind. I came
to Gilbault in Terre Haute, Indiana overlooking the federal
penitentiary in Indiana. And I was raised by a bunch of monks that
taught us how to tell the truth and how to play handball and how
to box in a boxing ring.
So, I learned to fight early and I ran off and stole a bicycle and
then I went to reform school for that. And I ran off from reform
school. And all my life I've been in prison. I've been in jail running
off. I never went to school. I've never grown up. I've never
accepted the system. I've always accepted the ole man, the ole
winos and I accepted the retired veterans that were guards at the
prisons and county supervisors and such.
But there's a line that man walks. All men walk a line. And I walk
that line in prison. I don't tell on other people. I don't carry tales
about other people. If someone's going to kill themselves, I feel
obligated by Christian ethics to tell him don't do that, your life is
worth more than that. But if he continues to go on a
self-destructive path, I step from his way. I get out of his way.
I've learnt that in prison.
Someone's got a knife and they're going to do something, I say
don't do that. And they say I'm going to do it, I say I'm gone. It's
got nothing to do with me. So they call me on the phone and said
the guy's got a gun, what do I do? I said, well if he's got a gun he
must be afraid of something.
DEPUTY BOARD COMMISSIONER BROWN: Hold on a minute. I think
he's kind of straying away from what you had going -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay.
INMATE MANSON: I 'm right there in Beausoleil's murder
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes. I think he's talking
- that's alright. [inaudible]
INMATE MANSON: I'm right there on the telephone where he called
and asked me what to do, This is the point where I got convicted.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Go ahead, Mr. Manson.
INMATE MANSON: It would come from the witness stand that when
on the telephone the only thing that ever connected me with
Hinman's murder was Beausoleil called me and asked me what to do
and I told him, you know what to do. I didn't tell him like, [raising
voice] you know what to do. I told him, man, you're a man, grow
up juvenile. Don't ask me what to do. Stand on your own two feet.
Be responsible for your own actions. Don't ask me what to do. I
just got out of prison. I don't want to go back to jail.
I know what walking that line is. It's a straight razor in the barber
shop in McNeil Island. I've worked in a straight razor, I've worked in
the barber shop in the McNeil Island. I was with all the ole men
that came out a Alcatraz. I don't break the law. The old man tells
me, if you don't break the law, you don't have to go to jail. You
break the law, you're putting yourself in jail. The law is there and
the will of God. You break that law, you're breaking the will of God
and you're going to go to jail. When I got out, that was my symbol.
Everybody else was doing this and this and different symbols. I
would do that. And they'd say, what is that symbol? I'd say, that
symbol is, I got one positive thought. I'm in a rebirth movement. I
just come out a prison. I got a chance to start over. And I'm
starting over and I'm not breaking no laws. So don't come around
me with no- nothing. I don't want no money. I'll eat out of garbage
cans. I'll stay on the complete bottom. I'm underneath this snake
here. I'm not breaking no law.
So a lot a people came to me from the underworld and in the
outlaw world and run away from the war, from the Vietnam War.
That was - what's his name - them guys that testified for you on
them motorcycles. Them Italian kids that came off of that Venice,
California. They took the witness stand and they said everything
they could get away with to get their cases dropped. There wasn't
a witness that took that witness stand -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. I don't want to
go into the hearing, Mr. Manson. Just talk about the crime. Any
changes from what I read which is -
INMATE MANSON: Well, that's what made that- that's what wrote
that down is what all these people said to you guys, you know.
They told you all these trips about what I said, and when I said it,
and how in the hell -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: But any more
INMATE MANSON: - could you possibly know what I said to
somebody 25 years ago in the corner of - when we were only
talking to ourselves and I couldn't even remember what that - what
I said. I may have said just anything, but I know what I would say
now and I don't lie, so I know what I would say then, you know.
And I certainly wouldn't tell nobody to go in and do nothing to
anybody that I wouldn't want done to me.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay.
INMATE MANSON: Listen, listen. I got enough sense to know that if
I spit on you, that you - that gives you the God-given right to spit
on me back. Anything I do to you got the right to do right back to
me. And I'm not going get caught up in that. I've been in jail long
enough to know if you go over on the other side of that yard and
you beat somebody up and you walk that lines, pretty sooner or
later somebody's going beat you up.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. Let me go on a
little bit, okay, and talk about your prior criminality. You've covered
it pretty well. It says here that you started your criminal history
when you were very young, is that right? Back in '48 you went to
Terre Haute, Indiana Boys School because of a burglary of a
grocery store. And then you went AWOL from the school and was
placed in Indiana State Reformatory -
INMATE MANSON: Before you get into that, before you rush me off
into that.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay.
INMATE MANSON: Every time I go to these committees
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Uh-huh.
INMATE MANSON: - I'll wait two or three years for you and I'll sit in
the cell and stare at the wall for two or three years just waiting for
you people. And then when you get here you can't even give me
five minutes.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No -
INMATE MANSON: You're in such a rush, you know, you know.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: All right. Then what I -
INMATE MANSON: You have to slow down with my mind and to - to
see where your mind is.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: All right. All right.
You're right.
INMATE MANSON: Let me say this. The courtroom- Charles Older
would not been sitting on that bench had I not went in the
courtroom. So, we're kind a like married in this thought together,
like we're together whether we want to be here together or not,
you know, we're stuck in this madness, you know.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Right.
INMATE MANSON: I don't want this job. I'm not getting paid very
much, you know.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No, that's true.
INMATE MANSON: And you're certainly going to get paid if you take
your time, so give me time to finish what I was trying to do, will
you, please?
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Is it on the crime, Mr.
Manson?
INMATE MANSON: Yes sir, it is.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. Then -
INMATE MANSON: Yes, sir. It's the very same thing that you read.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay.
INMATE MANSON: You know, I kind of anticipated what you were
going to say because you've been saying the same thing for 20
years.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: All right.
INMATE MANSON: This has grown so much that the people living in
my life have moved in with uniforms and penitentiaries. They built
whole penitentiaries in the fear that they generated off of this
case. So the public can feel safe against this monster, we're going
to charge you 200 million dollars to build another set of
penitentiaries.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Mr. Manson -
INMATE MANSON: so people living in my life, they don't care
whether I broke the law or not. They'll make up a lot a things and
sell a lot a books, 58 of them to be exact, and billions of dollars has
been made. And it's okay if I have to spend my life in prison - let
me finish - just to hold me because I've shown you some strong
strength and I haven't surrendered to - to this by - by copping out
to you or telling tales on someone else or playing weak. You've
medicated me, you've burnt me, you've beat me, you've stabbed
me, you've done everything you can do to me and I'm still here.
And you're still going have to face the truth about this case sooner
or later. If not here -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: [inaudible]
INMATE MANSON: - in the street.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: All right, Mr. Manson.
I'm going to give you an opportunity to give a closing statement
and you can read that or talk about that at that particular time.
We're going to now talk about your prior criminality. I said before,
and I think you stated that you were placed in a boys school at an
early age, in 1948, for burglary. You tried to escape from there or
run away, whatever it was, and you were placed in Indiana State
Reformatory.
Again went AWOL in February of '51. You stole an automobile, went
to Utah. You were arrested there and you were convicted of the
Dyer Act and sentenced to the National Training School for Boys in
Washington, D.C.
Your adult convictions there are one, two, three, four, five, six,
seven, eight or nine adult convictions beginning in 1955 and ending
in 1969. They've consisted of the Dyer Act - you were sentenced
to three years in federal prison for that, attempted escape, five
years probation; forgery, mail theft, ten years suspended; Los
Angeles probation violation; ten years federal prison, McNeil Island,
Washington; South Ukiah, interfering with an officer, three years
probation; and in Ventura possession of a drivers license and in Los
Angeles, was the instant offense of murders.
Now you said you also spent time in Mexico in a prison.
INMATE MANSON: Yes, I was in Mexico for -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: In prison down there?
INMATE MANSON: In Mexico City, prison, yes. Immigration prison.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: What was that for?
INMATE MANSON: I had been accused of killing some French people
and a couple dudes in Acapulco.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: And how long were you
in prison down there?
INMATE MANSON: I was there a couple different times.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: A couple times?
INMATE MANSON: Uh-huh.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: I have here under your
personal factors, Mr. Manson, that you were born on - in 1934 in
Cincinnati, Ohio. Your mother was Kathy Maddox, who never - and
you never saw your natural father.
INMATE MANSON: That's not true.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: It's not true?
INMATE MANSON: No. My father's name was William Manson.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: William?
INMATE MANSON: Yes.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: And did you live with
him for a while?
INMATE MANSON: No. You know, it's one of those divorce trips
where you see a guy walk by and he's your father and you really
don't - you know, I remember his boots -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes.
INMATE MANSON: - and I remember him when he went to the war.
I remember when he - his uniform, but I don't remember what he
really looked like.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Your mother was
arrested shortly after the birth and sentenced to prison for assault
and robbery?
INMATE MANSON: Yes.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: And you lived with your
maternal grandparents in West Virginia. You don't have a southern
accent, do you?
INMATE MANSON: When I need it.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes, when you need it.
you later resided in foster homes until you were made a ward of the
court in '47. The rest of your juvenile life was spent in various
informatories, reformatories and boys schools in Pennsylvania and
Indiana. You dropped out of school at the age of 9 in the third
grade. You married Rosealie Willis in 1954. The marriage ended in
divorce in 1956. You have one son, Charles, Jr. which resulted from
this marriage, but you have not seen your son since the divorce. Is
that correct, Mr. Manson?
INMATE MANSON: I don't know.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Okay. It says here, no
military service. You used L.S.D. extensively, mescaline,
amphetamines and barbiturates, but no alcohol. Is that correct?
INMATE MANSON: No.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: No? Enlighten me.
INMATE MANSON: I've taken a few tabs of acid, I smoked grass, I
smoked a little hash. I don't mess with drugs, per se. I don't do
anything self destructive. I like the cactus buds. They're a spiritual
experience, and I -
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Peyote?
INMATE MANSON: And mushrooms are okay.
PRESIDING BOARD COMMISSIONER KOENIG: Yes.
INMATE MANSON: I drink scotch whiskey. I like scotch whiskey and
I drink beer occasionally. I'm not much of a wine drinker, but now
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