Prosecution: Where did you reside in 1857?
 

Witness: At Cedar City.
 

Q: How long had you previously resided there?
 

A: I believe from '52 - '51 or '52.
 

Q: Do you know where the Mountain Meadows are located?
 

A: Yes, sir.
 

Q: Describe to the jury where the Mountain Meadows are located.

A: Located about 45 miles (between that and 50) from Cedar City on the old California Road.

Q: In what county?

A: Now, in Washington County. Then, in Iron.

Q: In what territory?

A: In Utah Territory.

 Q: Are you acquainted with John D. Lee?

A:  I am.

Q: Were you acquainted with him in 1857?

A: At what time?

Q: In 1857.

A: Yes, sir. I was there at the massacre.

Q: I want you to state to the jury what you know in relation to the massacre­ and about what time it was.

A: As near as I can recollect, it was in September. I can't tell you the day or the date. I think it was toward the last-probably about the middle.

Q: That year was it?

A: It was in '57.

Q: Won't you relate to the jury the circumstances, as you know them, in relation to the massacre of which you speak. Just commence in your own way and relate the circumstances.

A: The first that I know of the company coming in?

Q: Yes, sir,

Defense counsel: We suggest that a more limited question be put to the witness.

Prosecution: State what you know about it.

Defense: [He] can't give any testimony except about John D. Lee.

Prosecution: Go on and state the details.

Defense: If he goes on and narrates in his own way, we will have no chance to object until the objectionable matter has gone to the jury.

Prosecution: It is the first time in the progress of the trial that the defendant has attempted to direct the manner of the prosecution.

Judge-to the witness: Don't detail any hearsay matter.

Prosecution: Go on, and state what you know of that massacre, and who were engaged ill it, but don't state any hearsay testimony.

Witness: I will as far as I know. The first thing I shall mention is when I heard of this company coming from Salt Lake. I heard of the emi­grants coming down here, and learned that the people were forbidden to trade with them; that there was a great deal of feeling some way or other, and it made me feel, to tell the truth, bad about it when I heard it. Finally the company came on to Cedar City and I happened to be down at the little town. There is about a mile dif­ference between the two towns. I didn't at first see but a few of them-three or four at the mill getting a grist down of some wheat they had bought from Mr. Jackson. I went on up home to the upper city. This was probably-might have been-Friday. I heard there was some disturbance through the emigrants swearing in town. And I heard that John M. Higbee had fined them.

Defense: We don’t want that hearsay.

Witness: However, let that go as it will, it don't make much difference here nor there. This, I think, was about Friday - if I remember it must have been about Friday, to the nearest of my recollection. This company went on from there, and I still heard rumors that I shall not say anything about, now. On Sunday, as was the usual custom of having meetings - and President and Council, High Council,

Bishop's Council- all the afternoon, and talking things and matters over. And directly when the Council met, this thing came up.

 Q: I will ask you if you held any position, and if so, what?

A: I was not in any mil­itary order. I was a Bishop.

Defense: We object to the statement about the council. That is a matter between other parties. Unless the question is put in another form, we object to it.

Prosecution: We will connect it.

Judge: They propose to connect the question with it.

Defense: This is not a charge of combination [conspiracy]: John D. Lee is charged with murder, not with combining with a1lybody. If Mr. Lee was not there, it is incompetent. It is your duty to connect him with it. Unless you can show that John D. Lee was one of that Council, the statement of the proceeding of that Council is incompetent.

Judge: Either party can commence either at the beginning or middle or end of their testimony. It is a rule I have been used to for many years, and I think it is the best rule. They promised to connect the defendant with this. If they don’t, the Court will have to strike it out.

Defense: Your Honor will please note our exception to that ruling, until it appears that John D. Lee was a member of that Council, or was present.

Prosecution: Go on and state what took place at that Council.

Witness: This question of those emigrants, and their destruction, came before us at that time; and there was ...

Q: Of whom was that Council composed?

A: Haight, Higbee, myself - I could not tell all the names of them; Morill was there, Ira Allen, and Wesley Willis I think was there.

 Q: What is Haight's full name?

A: His first name is Isaac C. Haight.

Q: What occurred?

A: This thing was talked over.

 Defense: We object to that question. Now, it appears affirmatively that John D. Lee was not there; and he is not connecting him with it.

Judge: On the same ground that they have promised to connect, they may do it by some other witness.

Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Go on and state what happened there.

Witness: This question came up and there was some of the brethren opposed to such a proposition - and when it came to my turn, I opposed it. There were others that were opposed to it, too. Haight jumped up and broke up the meeting, and went outdoors. Then a proposition was made there. The question I asked them was this: what would be the consequences provided such a thing should take place.

Q: What did they propose to do?

A: They didn't propose to do anything particular when this thing was talked about.

Q: What was said?

 A: I have stated all that I can remember.

Q: What was the substance of what was said?

 A: It was their- the substance was for their destruction, and I opposed it.

Q: For their destruction by whom?

A: Their destruction was proposed by the Indians. I cannot say positively that the whites were going to do it from there. Then the meeting broke up, and on Monday morning, down below the old fort wall there was several of us met together, again.

Q: Who?

A: Isaac C. Haight, Higbee, myself, Joel White, and I don't recollect anyone else. The talk came up again about these emigrants coming. There they were not yet at Cedar. I got onto the same subject again, and opposed it, and asked questions about it, and said for my part I would like to see these people go through unmolested. Haight then replied, "you may go with Mr. White over to Pinto Creek [a small settlement close to Mountain Meadows] with a letter and tell the people there that these people shall [be allowed to] go through, and try and pacify the Indians - for that people to go through." That is all.

Q: Did you go over there?

A: I did. I went over there. I started in the afternoon.

Q: Who accompanied you?

 A: Joel White went with me. We started in the afternoon, and met John D. Lee down at the lower end of the field. Probably two and a half miles from town. Lee asked, "Where are you going?" White replied, "We are going to see that these people go through unmolested." He [Lee] said, "I have something to say in that matter, and I will see to it." We made no reply. We went on. He went to Cedar. I knew not anything more of him till afterwards.

Q: Was that all he said at the time?

A: It was all he said at that time. Now, then, I went out that evening and got there in the night-past these emi­grant's company at Iron Springs, five mile outside of Pinto Creek. And the next morning as they were drawing out from camp, we passed back and went on our way together back to Cedar.

Q: How many of the emigrants were there?

A: I never counted them. There was a good many.

Q: Of what class?

A: I should suppose the train composed of twenty or thirty wagons.

Q: About how many people?

A: I could not tell you.

Q: Approximate.

A: It appears as though there was a hundred or more.

Q: How was it with reference to sex and age?

A: There was old men, middle aged men, old women, young women and children.

Q: After you passed them, state what occurred.

A: I came on towards home and met a man named Ira Allen, beyond where we met Lee about four miles. That was the day following. We didn't know what was up, and Ira Allen stated right out...

 Defense: Objection.

Prosecution: We will connect Mr. Allen as one of the conspirators in this affair.

Judge: Go ahead, the objection is overturned.

Defense: Note our exception.

Q: Go on, state what occurred.

A: He said that the doom of the emigrants that went out there was sealed, that the die was cast, the doom fixed for their destruction, that John D. Lee had orders from headquarters at Parowan to take men - go around below and go out. He had orders to go to Pinto Creek and countermand what I and Mr. White had been to Pinto Creek and tried to do.

Q: What else was done, then?

 A: I know nothing more about it. I went home.

White lived in the lower town, and I went up to my place pretty fatigued from riding. I don't know anything more about what was going on. Only about rumors, until about three days afterwards. Then Haight, living over at the iron works in a little house, sent down McFarlane there to me, to come over there. I went over behind his house. He there told me this story.

Defense: We object to anything Mr. Haight may have told this witness.

Judge: Overruled.

Defense: Defendants take exception.

 Witness: He told me there was orders came in from camp last night.  Says he, "They hadn't got along as they anticipated, and the news came in to me for reinforcements, and I immediately went over to Parowan and there got further orders what to do."

Q: Did he say who gave these orders?

A: Yes, sir. I will say, by and by. He said he came home in the night with these orders from Co!. Dame that in order to finish the massacre they was to decoy them out and to spare nothing but the small children that could not tell the tale. That is what he told me. I went down to the old town then directly. He told me to go down there, and I happened to come right in front of Ira Allen's house. There, John M. Higbee, Ira Allen, and Charlie Hopkins were right in front of his dooryard. And as I stepped up, John Higbee says, "You are ordered out armed, and equipped as the law directs, to go to the Mountain Meadows." And so I went.

Defense: If you’re Honor please, this is another party that the witness has brought in, and makes statements of John M. Higbee that are not connect­ed with Mr. Lee.

Judge: I will overrule the objections on the same grounds as before.

Defense: Exception.

Witness: I went and fitted up, got my animal and gun and ammuni­tion and went out.

Q: Who went with you?

A: Charlie Hopkins went out with me, and John M. Higbee, and I think possibly that John Willis went with a wagon and Sam McMurdy with a baggage wagon.

Q: Where did you go to?

A: We started-the rest I cannot remember. We start­ed over there, and when we got to Hamblin's ranch in the night-sometime in the night-I don't exactly recollect ...

Q: Jacob Hamblin's?

A: Yes, sir. The ranch was about three miles this side of where the emigrants were camped. Well, there was Lee and some others-not a great many from the camp, where the general camp was, passed up further, by a. spring. When this party that had gone out from Cedar, they composed quite a little number of men. Then we began to find out that they [the emigrants] was not all killed, as it was represented, while there was a few more ...

Defense: We object to the statement of individuals.

Prosecution: Who do you mean by some?

A: Those that I mentioned. I can mention some names that was there. There was John D. Lee, John M. Higbee, myself - there was Hopkins, Ira Allen, and there was another man, died since, Wiley. I don't recollect anybody else. Lee called us out to one side ...

Q: Was George Adair there?

A:  I don't think he was, I cannot say.

Q: Was William C. Stewart?

Defense: Objected to as leading.

 Witness: They were not at this place. What I was going to refer to ...

Q: Go on and explain to the jury what place you refer to.

A: He called us out, these names, a little to one side and we had a consultation about the instructions that carne through Higbee to him from Col. Dame at Parowan.

 Q: A little to one side of what?

A: Of the ranch.

Q: You speak of a branch of the brethren?

 A: They might have been ten or fif­teen rods from the rest, up in the mouth of the little wash; there Lee stated the circumstances of the situation-and that the emigrant train ...

Q: Relate what he stated, as near as you can remember.

 A: He stated they had strong fortifications; that there was no possible chance to get them out that he knew of. Then Higbee, having orders, says, "Orders is from me to you that they are to be decoyed out and disarmed, got out in any manner the best way you can." There it was agreed upon and the command was given to John D. Lee to carry out the whole scheme. I suppose before that Higbee had the authority, but I found out it belonged to Lee.

Q: What was done then?

A: We went back, and the orders was to go up to the springs where the Indians and these southern soldiers were camped. At the spring, a way off, this side of the ground.

Q: What do you mean by these soldiers?

A: White men - southern [Utah] sol­diers-those that carne from Washington County and around, so far as I know. Directly after we got up there, Lee called them into a hollow square and there talked to them - to the soldiers that were there; but I don't remember all that were there.

Q: How, and of whom, was that hollow square formed?

A: It was formed of white men, but I could not give the names of the persons, with the excep­tion of a few.

Q: About how many in nll1nber?

A: I should judge there was fifty, so far as I recollect.

Q: Was there any Indians in that hollow square?

A: There wasn't in that hollow square. The Indians were off somewhere else.

Q: Give the names of as many persons in that square, of that soldiers, as you can remember - composing that soldier.

A: I could not remember all of their names. I recollect some I noticed there. There was Mr. Slade. I was not in the square. I went off from what I was telling you, just to tell something I wanted.

Q: You can go back to that.

A: I noticed there Slade and I think his son; and I think Jim Pearce and brother, and his sons, but I would not be pos­itive. But he recognized me. I'd done business with him.

Q: Can you remember any others?

 A: I remember those I have mentioned before, from Cedar, and some other ones was there.

Q: Was George Adair there?

A: I could not say positively that he was or was not - only by rumor.

 Q: Was William Stewart there?

A: Mr. Stewart was there.

Q: State as many others, if you remember others.

A: There was Swen Jacobs, was up there.

Q: Was John Willis there?

A: He was down at the Hamblin ranch, but whether he was out there or not I could not say.

Q: Was Dan McFarlane there?

A: I would not be positive whether he was on the ground or not; it seems to run in my mind that he was, but I would not be positive. We stepped to one side out of the hollow square - that was myself and old man Slade - we stepped to one side up above the hollow square and talked the matter over, and the horrible thing that we were about to enter into. He had some feelings, and I had, that ran contrary to our natural feelings. Says I, "What can we do, how can we help ourselves?" Says he, "We can't." And directly, an order was given to march down, and we with the rest went along.

Q: How far from the hollow square was the immigrants?

A: Probably a mile and a quarter to a mile and a half. Don't think it's more than a mile and a half. There we were put into double file, by the orders that came. And John M. Higbee took command of that portion. With his other officers under him in that organization.

 Q: Go on and state what kil1d of all organization it was.

A: It was an organization that was called the Nauvoo Legion that is organized from ten up to hundreds.

Q: Go on and state what was done.

A: There we halted, probably between a quarter and a half a mile this side of the encampment of these emi­grants in sight. And someone went out with a flag of truce.

Q: Did you know who?

A: I could not tell you whether it was John D. Lee, or William Bateman; whoever it was, they came back after a commu­nication with some man who came out and met them-came out from the emigrant encampment. John went down there, and that man and John D. Lee sat down and had a long talk with the man that came out of the emigrant camp to meet the flag of truce. It was two hundred yards, maybe a little more, from the camp in the val­ley. What he said to that man or to that people, I know not, only as I saw the plot carried out that came from Haight to him from Parowan - John M. Higbee to him.

Q: Then what occurred?

A: Lee went down with that man to the camp in their entrenchment. There a wagon came that was up there some time. I don't know how many hours before anyone came out.

Prosecution: May it please your Honor, this testimony is very important. I see that one of the jurors seems to be napping.

 Judge: They are all wide awake.

Q: Go on from where you left off.

A: Well, after some time, after standing in the ranks there some time-well, probably, in all, three or four hours ­Lee was down at their encampment and stayed there until he brought the emigrants out.

Q: How long was he there?

A:  I have just stated, three or four hours before he came out. After he came up, it was understood [according to the] command given from Higbee to us, that Lee got, [that was] put up in the start, in the morning, that wherever this company, women to be led ahead, after the first two baggage wagons, and the lame and the children were mostly in them. Women were led ahead. Those that had been wounded in the previous attacks, three days before, which I knew nothing about.

Q: Tell what occurred then.

Defense: Objected to for the same reason as before - that a witness cannot tell what he didn't see.

Judge: Motion overruled. Defense: Exception.

 Prosecution: Did you hear Lee say anything about any previous attack?

Witness: Yes, sir. I heard him say that morning that they had been attacked and could not be routed.

Q: Attacked by whom?

A: By the Mormons who went out with the Indians.

Q: Well, go on from that point - where you were before - when Higbee was giv­ing the orders.

A: Well, we were to march along a little ways with this people along side of us, and when the word "halt" came, we were to fire. Every man fired as far as I know. Whether I did or not, I can't tell.

 Q: Describe the order.

 A: The women walked behind the baggage wagons on the main road. They were ahead of all the company of men - the women was. After they came up from their encampment and passed us, a kind of halt took place there, and the women and bag­gage wagons went on ahead. And John D. Lee went ahead with them.

 Q: The women, were they following after?

A: As far as I recollect, every one of them.

Q: Describe how they were. State how they were with reference to each other.

A: They were marching up ahead of the men, behind these wagons. They went on around toward the summit, where there is a bend. When I heard the word "fire!" I went up there and saw them laying along there.

Q: In what condition?

 A: I found them in almost every condition; some with their throats cut, some heads smashed, some shot. That is the way it looked to me.

Q: Did you see any children there?

A: I didn't see any in the body of where they were massacred. I saw a young girl that was probably seven or eight years old-somebody killed her. I could not tell who killed her. I did not see it.

Q: You say somebody killed her.

 A: I did.

Q: Do you know who it was?

A: No, it was a kind of dusk, and I did not see it.

 Q: Where were the men of the train- the emigrants that were killed?

A: Behind, probably two or three hundred yards.

Q: How were they killed?

A: They were shot.

Q: By whom?

 A: By those that shot them - this company that I have described.

 Q: In what order did they march out?

 A: I did-I think-describe it when I spoke of the men that was massacred. In double file, as near as I can recollect. And probably, they were thrown into single file before the word was given, "fire!"

 Q: By whom were they accompanied, or rather, marched out?

 A: I could not rec­ollect all these things; there was a kind of a dumbfustication in my mind. They were accompanied by Lee, at the head of the wagon. I don't remember anybody else.

 Q: Do you know who gave the order to fire?

A: John M. Higbee gave the orders.

Q: Where was Lee when this firing was done?

A: With the women on ahead, when they were slaughtered.

 Q: Had he any arms on his person?

A:  I presume he had.

Q: What is your remembrance of it?

A: I could not say at that time, because I could not hear him in action.

Q: Did you see any at all?

A: He carried his fire arms like any other man did.

 Q: What sort of arms were the balance of these soldiers armed with?

A: They were armed with revolvers, United States Yaugers, and such guns as set­tlers generally have through this Territory. Some revolvers, yaugers, shot guns and so forth.

Q: State how many men were killed there?

A: I could not tell you positively.

Q: Well, about how many?

A: I suppose there were fifty. There might have been more, because I never counted them. I only know by hearsay afterwards, at different times.

Q: Do you know whether any escaped or not?

A: None got away as far as I rec­ollect. None escaped from there.

Q: Did yon see anyone of them attempting to escape?

 A: I did. I saw some men on horses, for the purpose to take these in the wings that might run away-that might not have been killed-not fired upon by the first shot. I saw a man running across from the firing. I saw Bill Stewart going after him on a horse, and I suppose - I think as far as I can recollect that he shot him there, of course.

Defense: Objection to what the witness supposes.

Prosecution State what was done about that time.

Witness: I was told to take charge of the children at that time.

 Q: You saw the man, Stewart, going after a mall?

 A: I think I saw the man fall. It must be so, in my mind, because he didn't go far.

 Q:  What else?

A: I didn't see any other man. I saw Ira Allen -on the left wing on horseback, and that is all I remember of that.

Q: You spoke of some men being in the wagons. What was done with them?

A: When I got up to the wagons - I shall tell you now how I got there. I was told, after I had made a fire, to go and take charge of the lit­tle children-to gather them up and take charge of them.

Q: Let me call your attention, again, to the order in which the men marc1zed out of corral. What position did the soldiers occupy to them as they marched out?

A: They didn't occupy any till the soldiers came up. That is where the soldiers were stationed.

Q: Describe to the jury; how the soldiers were stationed, and how the other men were marched up.

A: I will state again, as I have, they were marched up there in single or double file, behind the women and the baggage wagons, and came up to where we was in a bend - probably a quar­ter of a mile or so. I can't tell, exactly.

Q: How were you located?

A:  I was in the ranks with the balance.

 Q: In single or double file?

 A: I think we were in double file; I would not be positive. It appears to me so today. The emigrants came up, and the women and the baggage wagon a little ways ahead. We marched with them probably a hundred or two hundred yards on the right side of them. They came up on the left till they came to this place where they were killed, and the women was ahead a little ways.

Q: Please explain how that was.

A: We marched to the right side of them, while they kept to the left.

Q: Describe how each soldier was situated to some other man.

 A: The soldiers were commanded to be ready at the word, "halt," at a minute's warning - with his gun across his arm, marching side by side with these emigrants.

 Q: You say they were marching with their guns over their arms. Describe the thing from that time.

 A: These emigrants they were protecting made some remarks of glad they was out. When the word, "halt," was given, that was the word to fire. And then they were killed.

 Q: Did they all fall at the first shot?

A: No, sir. Some ran away.

Q: What was done with those that ran away?

A: The one I saw running, he was killed.

Q: Did the greater portion of them fall the first shot? How were they killed?

A: I didn't see but one man killed - and that man was wounded a little and was lying on the ground. And John M. Higbee went up to him and drew his knife and cut his throat. This man begged for his life, and he was lying on the ground when that was done.

Q: How far from the ranks was he when that was done?

Q: After the killing was ended, what was done then?

A: There I was told by Higbee to take charge of the children and the baggage wagons.

Q: By whom?

 A: By Higbee, my commander.

 Q: What did you do?

A: I went up there and took charge of them. These men, they were killed and out of the wagons before I got there.

Q: Who killed them?

 A: I know not, only by rumor.

Q: Won't you designate who you mean by "these men" - those men who were killed in the first attack in their fortifications?

A: These men that were with the baggage wagons.

Q: When the wagon passed your ranks, who was with them?

A: Lee was with them, and ahead of the man that drove the wagon.

Q: Was he in the wagon, or on the ground?

A: I do not know-could not say whether he was in the wagon or not.

Q: What occurred when you went up to take charge of the children?

A: When I went up there, I don't recollect seeing Lee. They had a team there­.  Me, Murdy and I think Sam Knight, from the Clara was up with their wagons-and these children with some of the things was put into these wagons. And we went down to Hamblin's house. And that is the end of my knowing or seeing anything more there.

Q: Well, what were the soldiers doing there?

A: They dispersed - going south to Cedar and some to Hamblin's ranch. I don't recollect of seeing any­body else from the southern districts except Knight.

Q: Did you see John D. Lee after you started away with these children?

A: I did.

Q: Where?

A: I saw him there.

Q: Did you have any conversation with him?

A:  I did not have any conversation with him.

Q: What was he doing up to that time?

A:  I could not tell you, because I went immediately - went away and could not recognize any particular thing that he did.

Q: I want you to go on from that point and state what was done, and how these men were dispersed.

A: I don't know how they were dispersed; I left there as I told you, with the children and the wagons. I had my hands full. Some of the children were wounded and crying.

Q: Some of the children wounded? How many wounded?

A: I think one died at Hamblin's ranch. I think there was two died, but one died there.

Q: Where abouts were they wounded?

A: I think that it was wounded in the arm - a bad wound - and one somewhere else. I could not tell exactly, and I know I had to leave it.

 Q: Of what was the emigrant train composed? What kind of train was it - mule train or ox train?

 A: They had some mules. The majority were oxen­-ox wagons. There were some mules and some horse teams.

 Q: About how many wagons had they?

A:  I don't recollect. I could not tell you. I don't remember. I never was near enough to them to count them. I never saw them going away from the slaughter - know nothing about that. Consequently, I could not tell you how many there was.

 Q: Do you know how many cattle they had?

 A: I don't know how many cattle there were.

Q: About how many wagons? State as near as you can.

A: I stated, I think, between twenty-five and thirty, when I passed them at Iron Springs.

Q: When you passed them at Iron Springs, did you see the stock they had when you passed them there?

A: There was a part there, and a part out. They was hunting some stock, and I cannot recollect only the teams; they were hitched up, ready to move on.

Q: How many cattle had they?

 A: I can't recollect. Only those teams that was hitched up, ready to move on. I could not see the cattle that was below, yet. They was away.

 Q: After this massacre, did you ever see any stock that belonged to that train?

A: I did.

 Q: Did you know what was done with them?

A: In part, I did; and in part I didn't know what was done with them.

 Defense: We object to this as immaterial.

Judge: Objection overruled.

 Defense: Exception.

Prosecution continues: What was done with these cattle?

A: As regards what was done with them cattle, I don't know.

Q: Do you know what was done with any of them?

A: I know some. I would like to tell you a little farther, right from Hamblin's.

Q: Go on then.

A: Well, the next morning I started with the children for Cedar City-I put them on Sam McMurdy's wagon and John Willis's wagon, and went on to Pinto Creek. And I think I left one little child there - one that was wounded; I left one or two there. Then I went home. I passed a train from San Bernardino. It was old Billy Matthews. I could not tell you who all was in from the fact that I didn't see them. We was off the road a little to the right, where there was water. They passed on while I was there. After they was gone, we went on to Cedar City. It was in the night before I got there. I had to stop there to get some water for the children. These men lived here in Beaver-most of them-these freight teams. Tanners, Matthews, and Shepherds, I think, and these old gentlemen, freighting at that time. I started on at that time, doing the best I could with the children - went on past them and got something to eat and drink, and went on and got to Cedar City in the night. I went to a place called Hopkins' Place. An old lady that was a mid­wife there - a motherly kind of woman who had midwifed around among the sisters there - I told her I had so many children got from that place. But I didn't tell her any particulars about it; though she perfectly well understood that, because her husband was in and out. She understood part of it, at least. There I stopped with these children and she rustled around and got places next day, and I think I took one home - I think I took one home or got it afterwards, I don't know which - a nice little baby girl, and my woman raised it-suckled it. And afterwards that child was give to Birkbeck at Cedar City because they had no children. It was a babe at the breast.

Q: Do you know what became of its mother?

 A:  I do not. I never knew what became of its mother. I got them places around, of course. Every one good places-as soon as possible-as soon as I could. But as a general thing they were well treated as far as I know. I made it my business to get these children places where there was not many children. In that way I disposed of them around in different places. Who all had them, I could not tell.

 Q: After you got back to Cedar City, did you ever meet John D. Lee and have any conversation with him on the subject of what occurred?

A: I don't recollect meeting with him after that occurred there - not at that place.

Q: When did you first meet him after that?

A: I met him in Salt Lake after.

 Q: Did you go to Salt Lake together?

A: No, sir, we didn't go to Salt Lake together.

 Q: State what occurred, if anything, relative to this matter in Salt Lake City.

 A: Previous to this - you may call it hearsay - I could say what I heard Haight say to John M. Higbee.

 Q: State what Higbee and these parties you refer to said about this matter.

Defense: We abject to that as hearsay, as to John D. Lee, and he is the only party an trial.

A: At this point arguments were made on both sides.

Judge: Overruled.

Defense: Exception.

 Defense: I will make a further objection to the question being answered, an the grounds that the indictment does not warrant an introduction of that character of testimony.

 Judge: Overruled.

 Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Will you state now what conversation, after this massacre, you had with any of the parties. That is, you refer to Haight and Mr. Higbee, I believe - what conversation you had with them in relation to the disposition of the property belonging to that massacred train.

A: I would have to give a little further detail to come to that point.

Q: Be as brief as you can, and amid any outside matters.

A: Sometime after that-several days-Haight told me to go over to the Iron Springs that is about seven miles from Cedar City on the old emigrant road - that would be in the early days. He told me to go over there, that they had brought in wagons, cattle, and other things - goods and clothing-and was at Iron Springs. And I should go over there and get that property and put them into the tithing office cellar. I accordingly, went. And I also was to brand the cattle that was there, which was probably fifty head. I went, and there I saw John Urie and George Hunter, and I think if I mistake not, other men were there who helped to get it there - and Ira Allen. But I would not be positive about that. However, these two men was there, with a number of wagons. I could not tell you now the number, but I pre­sume the bigger part of them.

Q: Tell what you know.

A: I was there. Three men were engaged in it- pick­ing it up at the place of the emigrant encampment. They took the wagons away, brought the cattle, and drawed them to that spring. I accordingly went under these order and brought it from there in the evening and put it in the tithing office cellar - all the tarps and clothing and such like that was among the company that got there from the place of the encampment at the Iron Springs. Hitched up some of the cattle - enough to draw these wagons over there. These wagons remained there around the tithing office and these goods remained there till afterwards, till a different disposition was made of them.

Q: What else was done? You stated a different disposition was made. State what that was.

A: After this occurred, I branded them with the Church brand.

Q: What sort of brand was that?

A: With the Church brand - a cross.

Q: State what else was done. You said there was another disposition made.

A: I will now go back to another disposition. I don't recollect of but once see­ing Mr. Lee, and he was up there at Cedar City and was in that cellar with me, and saw these good in the cellar. Afterwards, I had no more conversation with him that I recollect till he went to Salt Lake. I was told by Haight and Higbee that they held a Council, and counseled matters over. I was not present.

Defense: We object to witness detailing as to matters that he did not hear.

Judge: Objection overruled.

 Defense: Exception.

 Witness: And that to divulge and tell the circumstances and all about it was put upon John D. Lee.

 Q: For what purpose?

 A:  To tell him [Brigham Young] from first to last everything pertaining to that massacre. That is what was said. He went ahead. I don't know when he started, but he was ahead of me and Haight. We went down to the same Conference that fall. I suppose we started in the latter part of September.

 Q: What year was that conference?

 A: The same year that the Massacre was the sixth of October.

Q: Then it was the sixth of October following then that you were at Salt Lake City there to that conference?

 A: Yes, sir. I was probably there a day or two before.

 Q: Well, go on.

Defense: Objected to on the grounds that this matter is not charged in the indictment. There is no conspiracy charged with Brigham Young. This is entirely outside of the allegations and the indictment. It is immaterial and irrelevant.

 Prosecution: This California case was the same.

 Judge: Let me hear the case cited in the California report.

 Prosecution: The question was really thus: that it was at the sixth of October conference of the same year that the Massacre occurred that you went to Salt Lake City. That was the question.

Judge: Objection overruled. Defense: Exception.

Prosecution: Go on.

 Witness: After I got to Salt Lake City, I met Mr. Lee. I think on the east side of the Temple wall, and we had some talk about it. I asked him whether he had delivered that message which he was to deliver to Brigham Young. He said he had, verbatim, everything that tran­spired. That is what he told me.

Q: What else?

A: Then, probably the same day, or it might be the day after, but I think it was the same day, I and Mr. Lee, and Charlie Hopkins went to see President Young, and he went with us in his barnyard to one place and another and showed us his fine things, and we came back into his house, and there in my presence and Mr. Lee's and Mr. Hopkins', he turned around to me, as I had possession of that property. After doing this, says he, "Dispose of that property, let John D. Lee take charge of it."

 Q: Who said that?

A: Brigham Young said that.

Defense: We object to assertions of third parties. Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.

Witness: Next word was - he turned around to us and said, "What you know of this, say nothing about it: even don't talk among your­selves about it."

Q: Did you relate to him the circumstances?

A: I didn't tell him anything about it. He turned to Lee, as there had been this conversation, and it was the understanding-

Q: They had a conversation, had they, before that?

A: Yes, and Lee was to carry out the understanding.

Q: State, if you know what disposition was made of that property.

 A: After we came home, I went - I went home I expect before Mr. Lee. I didn't see him anymore, that I recollect, for some time. After I got home, I was called on to go down to the Vegas, to the lead mines with some teams to get a load of are, as I had been one of the discoverers of the Potosi mines in early days. And so, three teams of us went. While I was gone, Lee - I'm only telling this now as it was told to me, I know nothing about it only as t was told - there is other witnesses who will tell.

 Q: Were you told by Higbee, or any of these persons?

A: I had a conversation with Higbee and Haight. It was turned over to him to take charge of it; and while I was gone they had an auction, and it was sold.

Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?

A: I don't know; only those that went to Salt Lake. Haight had charge of them, and traded them to Mr. Hooper for boots and shoes, which went to Cedar City.

Q: Who? Which Mr. Hooper?

A: That man that was generally the Representative from Utah to Congress.

Q: How many cattle were disposed of in that way?

A: I presume forty or fifty head was sold.

 Q: What was done with the stock of goods got by these cattle?

A: I never knew. When I came back, these goods were all gone. Some few good boots that I saw, I traded wheat for them-there was some few boots left.

Q: Who did I understand you to say, told you of tile disposition of this proper­ty?

A: Haight and Higbee told me all about it.

Q: Were there any Indians present at that massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How many?

A: I could not tell you, but the hills were pretty full around there, and they done the massacring of the women, generally. I understood they were to accomplish it. I saw one man cut a little boy's throat with a knife just as I left the ranks to take charge of the children. I also saw others-a good many, but could not tell the names - but afterward I heard of them.

Q: Did you see or hear of any remonstrances or efforts to restrain the Indians there?

A:  I did not. I understood at the time that Carl Shirts had a kind of charge of them, and kept them in the brush.

Defense: We object to this as hearsay.

No ruling by the court.

Prosecution: Did you hear anything said on the subject of the Indians on the ground here?

A: I did not.

Q: Were you ever told what part they took in it by any who were e1lgaged in it?

A: Yes, sir.

 Q: Were any of the Indians wounded there?

A: Yes, sir. Three wounded that I know of.

Q: What was done with them?

A: Two died afterwards, of their wounds.

Q: After the massacre, where did the Indians go to?

 A: Over to Cedar City, where they were from. They were both chiefs. One was named Bill, and the other Tom.

 Q: How near to the town did they come?

 A: They came back of the town - that is probably from where I lived a half of a mile in. That is, no doubt, near the cedar field.

Q: How long did they remain there?

A: They remained there a considerable length of time.

Q: Did you see any property of emigrants in their possession?

A: I saw a wagon cover that they had, and that they'd put around their wikiups.

Q: Did you see any clothes?

 A: I did. I saw some clothing in the possession of the Indians, but I could not tell you how much.

 Q: Won't you describe the looks and appearance of the clothes?

A: That would be a hard matter to do. In general, the clothing were a kind of home made men's wear.

Q: Was there anything peculiar on the clothes or about them?

 A: Nothing very peculiar that I recollect.

 Q: Was there any bullet holes in them - in any of them?

 A: I could not tell.

Q: Was there any blood stains on them?

A: Yes, there was, I believe, but I could not tell you as regards to that, of the Indians.

Q: What kind of clothes did John D. Lee wear when he went to Salt Lake City?

A:  I believe he had a checked shirt on.

 Q: Did he have any coat?

 A: I presume he had. I didn't notice him.

 Q: Did you ever see him with a coat?

A: Yes.

 Q: A coat down there?

A: Of course.

Q: Do you know where he got it?

A:  I don't know where he got the coat?

 Q: Did you ever see John D. Lee in possession of any clothing that came from that train- and if so, what?

A: I did.

Q: What?

 A:  I saw him get some dresses and some jeans, in the cellar.

Q: And what did he do with them?

 A: I don't know, but he took them away.

 Q: Was there anything said what he was to do with them?

A: He said he wanted it for some clothing. That is what he said.

 Q: I wish to call your attention, again, to the Indians. State if you know anything in relation to their participation in that massacre. Tell what you know al10ut it - if you know how they came to participate in it.

A: I don't, only by the stories that Mr. Allen brought to me-that Mr. Allen brought to me and Joel White when he met us. He said it was-

 Defense: We object.

 Judge: Objection overruled.

Defense: Exception.

 Witness: Allen told us, as he came up, that he was to go out there to Pinto Creek, and that John D. Lee had his order to go around below and gather up the Indians; and that he was to go around and destroy that company. That is what he told me. I made no reply.

Q: Did you ever have a conversation with John D. Lee on that subject?

A: Yes, sir. I had a conversation about it afterwards.

Q: That was it?

A: I don't recollect the conversation about it, because there was not much said about it at any time; there was very little talk at any time. But I knew the thing was done.

 Q: State, if you can remember any conversation you had with him about it - if you can state it.

 A: I don't remember anything that would lead to any­thing more particular about it.

 Q: Was there any person in control of the Indians there, and in command open them?

 A: Yes, sir.

 Q: Who?

 A:  Carl Shirts was interpreter. He had command of them.

 Q: Do you know what connection, if any, Mr. Lee had with the Indians?

 A: He was Agent at Harmony, so far as I understood it.

 Q: As Agent, what duties did he l1e1foml?

 A: The Agent had the privilege of trading with the Indians, and to issue out anything, according to the laws of the United States, and to trade them ammunition or anything.

Adjourned.

Reconvened Saturday, July 24, 1875, 9:00 A.M. Minutes read, state­ment made, etc., then Phillip Klingensmith is recalled for the Prosecution for further direct examination.

Prosecution: Do you know the names of any persons that were killed at the mountain Meadows?

 Witness: I do not.

 Q: How long, did you state, that John D. Lee remain in consultation with the party he met from the emigrant camp, when he carried the flag of truce, or when it was carried?

A:  I could not say; it was an hour or two, as far as I can recollect.

Q: Did you have any conversation with John D. Lee as to what occurred between him and the emigrants in that consultation?

A: No, sir. Not that I recollect.

Q: Never talked with him about that subject?

A: If I did, it slipped my mind.

Q: On that occasion?

A: Not that I recollect of.

Q: Did you ever have any conversation with him subsequent to the massacre, as to what occurred during his communications with the emigrants at the time he was there - that is, after the Massacre occurred - did you ever have any conversation with John D. Lee as to what happened between them when he was in there?

A: I have had a talk with him, but to recol­lect what he said about it I could not remember.

Q: Who was the Commander of the Nauvoo Legion for southern Utah? Who was the General Commander?

A: I always understood that George A. Smith was the General Commander.

 Q: Who was the local commander down there - the commander from your county who was the commander of the forces that were on the ground there?

 A: On the ground, Lee was the Commander.

Q: Who was the Commander of the Nauvoo forces, of which that was a part, for Iron County?

A: Dame was the Colonel of that organization down from there.

 Q: Who was the Lieutenant Colonel?

A: Isaac C. Haight.

Q: Did Higbee have any position?

A: Yes, he was major.

 Q: Was George A. Smith down there about that time?

A: Not that I recollect. I didn't see him.

Q: Do you remember before this occurrence?

 A:  Not to my knowledge.

Q: Do you know whether any of these orders which led to that massacre emanat­ed from George A. Smith? And, if so, what it was?

A: No, sir. Not that I know about.

 Defense: Witness stated that it was understood that George A. Smith was Commander; that being hearsay, we ask to have it stricken out.

 Prosecution: Do you know who was the General Commander?

 A: I know that George A. Smith was the General Commander of that Iron County, at that time, from the beginning of it until the time I left Iron County .

Defense: We ask also that it 11e stricken out - the testimony as to wl11lt took place in the two conferences prior to the Massacre, when Lee was not pres­ent. [Prosecuting] counsel undertook to connect Lee with it, and Lee has not been connected with it.

 Judge: I think that is a part and parcel of the whole transaction. Motion overruled.

 Defense: Exception.

Cross-examination

[This ends Phillip Klingensmith's testimony for the prosecution.  Wm. W. Bishop began the cross-examination of Klingensmith for the defense. Portions of the cross-examination, which is long and sometimes repetitious, are omitted.]

 Defense: Mr. [Klingen]Smith, how old are You?

Klingensmith: I believe I'm going on sixty-one. I was born in '15, I understand the third of April.

Q: Where were you born?

 A:  Pennsylvania.

Q: How long did you reside in Pennsylvania after your birth?

A: I guess I was about twenty-three or twenty-four years old.

Q: Where did you remove to from Pennsylvania?

 A:  Indiana.

Q: How long did you remain there?

A:  Maybe, four, maybe five years.

 Q: Where did you go, next?

A:  I moved to Michigan and from there to Nauvoo.

 Q: What year did you go to Nauvoo in?

A: In forty-four, I believe.

 Q: How long did you remain in Nauvoo?

A: Till about forty-six, when the Mormons left Nauvoo.

Q: After leaving Nauvoo, where did you go to?

A:  I went to Garden Grove, and stopped a while in Iowa, and I remained there about a year.

Q: From there, where did you go?

A:  Council Bluffs.

Q: How long did you remain there?

 A: I think I remained in that country somewhere about a year.

Q: Where did you go from Council Bluffs?

A: I came to Salt Lake.

Q: When did you arrive in Salt Lake?

A: In forty-nine.

Q: What month?

A: August.

Q: How long did you remain in Salt Lake?

A: I remained there probably three months; not all the time in Salt Lake; I lived in Salt Lake, I had a lot there.

 Q: Where did you go from there?

A: Sanpete, in the year forty-nine.

Q: How long did you remain in Sanpete?

A:  I was there to make two crops.

Q: Where did you go next?

A:  I came down here, to Parowan.

Q: How long did you remain in Parowan?

A: I remained there one winter till next spring, and the same year.

Q: Where did you go from there?

 A:  Cedar City-or Cedar Fort, then.

Q: What year did you settle there in Cedar City?

 A: I think it was in fifty-two.

Q: How long did you make that your home?

A: I remained there some eight or nine years, in all, until a year after this affair took place, when I left there.

 Q: You lived there till fifty-eight?

A: Yes, sir.

 Q: Did you live there in fifty-eight?

A: I think it must have been fifty-nine when I left there.

 Q: Where did you go, then?

A: I went to a little town over the mountains, Toquerville.

 Q: How long did you remain there?

A: Not very long, at that time.