TESTIMONY IN THE TRIALS OF JOHN D. LEE

John D. Lee

AFFIDAVIT OF PHILIP KLINGENSMITH (1871)
(The affidavit that renewed interest in prosecution)
 Klingensmith Affidavit

TESTIMONY IN THE FIRST TRIAL (1875)
Testimony of Philip Klingensmith
[Klingensmith's testimony is probably the most detailed and credible account of the massacre,
the chain of command, and the distribution of the surviving children..]

TESTIMONY IN THE SECOND TRIAL (1876)
Deposition of Brigham Young
Testimony of Laban Morrill
Testimony of Samuel Knight
Testimony of Samuel McMurdy
Testimony of Nelphi Johnson
Testimony of Jacob Hamblin

DEPOSITION OF BRIGHAM YOUNG

Terrirory of Utah,} SS
Beaver County

In the Second Judicial District Court
The People, etc.
Vs.
John D. Lee, Wm. H. Dame, }   Indictment for Murder
Issac C. Haight, et al.              September 16th, 1875

 Questions to be propounded to Bringham Young on his examination as a witness in the case of John D. Lee and others, on trial at Beaver City, this 30th day of July, 1875, and the answers of Bringham Young to the interrogatives hereto appended, were reduced to writing, and were given after the said Bringham Young had been duly sworn to testify the truth in the above entitled cause, and are as follows:

First- State your age, and the present condition of your health, and whether in its condition you could travel to attend in person, at Beaver, the court now sitting there?  If not, state why not.
Answer- To the first interrogatory, he saith:
I am in my seventy-fifth year.  It would be a great risk, both to my health and life, for me to travel to Beaver at this present time.  I am, and have been for some time, an invalid.

Second- What offices, either ecclesiastical, civil, or military, did you hold in the year 1857?
Answer- I was the Governor of this territory , and ex-officio, Superintendent of Indian Affairs, and the President of the Church of  Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, during the year 1857.

Third- State the condition of affairs between the Territory of Utah and the Federal Government, in the summer and fall of 1857.
Answer - In Mayor June, 1857, the United States mails for Utah were stopped by the Government, and all communication by mail was cut off, an army of the United States, was en route for Utah, with the ostensible design of destroying the Latter-Day Saints, according to the reports that reached us from the East.

Fourth - Were there any United States judges here during the Summer and Fall of 1857?
Answer - To the best of my recollection there was no United States judge here in the latter part of 1857.

Fifth - State what you know about trains of emigrants passing through the territory to the West, and particularly about a company from Arkansas, en route for California, passing through this city in the summer or fall of 1857?
Answer - As usual, emigrants' trains were passing through our Territory for the West. I heard it rumored that a company from Arkansas, en route to California, had passed through the city.

Sixth - Was this Arkansas company of emigrants ordered away from Salt Lake City by yourself or anyone in authority under you?
Answer - No, not that I know of. I never heard of any such thing, and certainly no such order was given by the acting Governor.

Seventh - Was any counselor instructions given by any person to the citizens of Utah not to sell grain or trade with the emigrant trains pass­ing through Utah at that time? If so, what were those instructions and counsel?
Answer - Yes, counsel and advice were given to the citizens not to sell grain to the emigrants to feed their stock, but to let them have suf­ficient for themselves if they were out. The simple reason for this was that for several years our crops had been short, and the prospect was at that time that we might have trouble with the United States army, then en route for this place, and we wanted to preserve the grain for food. The citizens of the Territory were counseled not to feed grain to their own stock. No person was ever punished or called in question for fur­nishing supplies to the emigrants, within my knowledge

Eighth - When did you first hear of the attack and destruction of this Arkansas Company at Mountain Meadows, in September, 1857?
Answer - I did not learn anything of the attack or destruction of the Arkansas Company until some time after it occurred - then only by floating rumor.

Ninth - Did John D. Lee report to you at any time after this massacre what had been done at that massacre, and if so, what did you reply to him in reference thereto?

Answer - Within some two or three months after the massacre he called at my office and had much to say with regard to the Indians, their being stirred up to anger and threatening the settlements of the whites, and then commenced giving an account of the massacre. I told him to stop, as from what I had already heard by rumor, I did not wish my feel­ings harrowed up with a recital of detail.

 

Tenth - Did Philip Klingensmith call at your office with John D. Lee at the time Lee made his report, and did you at that time order Smith to turn over the stock to Lee, and order them not to talk about the mas­sacre

Answer - No. He did not call with John D. Lee, and I have no recol­lection of his ever speaking to me nor I to him concerning the massacre or anything pertaining to the property.

 

Eleventh - Did you ever give any directions concerning the property taken from the emigrants at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, or know anything as to its disposition?

Answer - No, I never gave any directions concerning the property taken from the company of emigrants at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, nor did I know anything of that property or its disposal, and I do not to this day, except from public rumor.

 

Twelfth - Why did you not, as Governor, institute proceedings forth­with to investigate that massacre, and bring the guilty authors thereof to justice

Answer - Because another Governor had been appointed by the President of the United States, and was then on the way to take my place, and I did not know how soon he might arrive, and because the United States Judges were not in the Territory. Soon after Governor Cummings arrived, I asked him to take Judge Cradlebaugh, who belonged to the Southern District, with him, and I would accompany them with sufficient aid to investigate the matter and bring the offend­ers to justice

Thirteenth - Did you, about the 10th of September, 1857, receive a communication from Isaac C. Haight, or any other person of Cedar City, concerning a company of emigrants called the Arkansas company?
Answer - I did receive a communication from Isaac C. Haight, or John D. Lee, who was a farmer for the Indians.

Fourteenth - Have you that communication?
Answer - I have not. I have made diligent search for it, but cannot find it.

Fifteenth - Did you answer that communication?
Answer - I did, to Isaac C. Haight, who was then acting president at Cedar City.

Sixteenth - Will you state the substance of your letter to him?
Answer - Yes. It was to let this company of emigrants, and all com­panies of emigrants, pass through the country unmolested, and to allay the angry feelings of the Indians as much as possible.

                      (Signed)                BRIGHAM YOUNG

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this 30th day of July, A.D. 1875

                         [L. S.] WM. CLAYTON, notary Public

LABAN MORRILL TESTIMONY, witness for the prosecution 

Q: Where do you reside?

A: Iron County, at what is called Fort Johnson.

Q: How long have you lived in the Territory?

A: Since 1852.

Q: Do you know the location of Mountain Meadows?

A: No, sir. I never was there.

Q: Where did you live in 1857?

A: I think I lived at Cedar City.

Q: How far is Cedar City from Beaver?

A: About thirty miles.

Q: Did you, in 1857, know any thing about an emigrant train, known as the Arkansas emigrant train, passing through the Territory to Southern California, or starting to pass?

A: By report only.

Q: Did you have any thing to do as an officer or citizen, at Cedar City, with regard to the passage of those emigrants? If you did, state what you know about their passage, in your own way.

A: Merely by report, that there was a company come through Cedar City. I lived off at a place called Fort Johnson, six miles and a half. I was engaged at that time some little in seeing what was called the best locality, or what would do the best good for some three or four little places, Cedar City, Fort Johnson and Shirts' Creek. We had formed a kind of a custom to come together about once a week, to take into consideration what would be the best good for those three places. I happened on Sunday to come to Cedar City, as I usually came, and there seemed to be a council. We met together about four o'clock, as a general thing, on Sunday evening after service. I went into the council, and saw there was a little excite­ment in regard to something I did not understand. I went in at a rather late hour. I inquired of the rest what was the matter. They said a com­pany had passed along toward Mountain Meadows. There were many threats given concerning this company.

SPICER - for Defendant - We object to these conversations, in which the witness has not shown that the defendant was present.

HOWARD - for the People - We expect to connect Mr. Lee with it in this way: We propose to show that at that council a report was made that the Indians had stopped this train of emigrants, or were about to stop them; and we propose to show further that at that time, in consequence of the condition of the country, it was claimed by some people that they should be held until a message could be sent to Salt Lake and their passage secured; that Mr. Morrill appeared there - others being in favor of stop­ping the emigrants, and perhaps doing more than that. Mr. Morrill appeared there and insisted that no interference should be had with them until orders came from Brigham Young - from headquarters _ and at first insisting that they should be allowed to pass unmolested. That the Indians should not be allowed to molest them if it could be avoided. That they should be prevented by all means from interfering with them. Mr. Morrill made several speeches to that council in favor of that propo­sition, and that finally an agreement was made that the emigrants should not be interfered with, and suspend all proceedings in regard to even stopping them until a message should come from Brigham Young. At that time Brigham Young was not only the President of the Church, but Governor of the Territory, and Indian Agent. We propose to follow it up by showing that an agreement was made and a messenger sent posthaste to Salt Lake. We propose to follow it up by showing that a messenger was sent to see that the Indians did not interfere with the emigrants. We propose to follow it up by showing that John D. Lee received that word. That that was the agreement of that council, and that he must not allow those emigrants to be interfered with. That he not only received that word, but that he made the remark that he had something to say about it. The man who carried the message was told that he had better get out of the way himself, or he would get hurt. There has been an effort made to show that others besides John D. Lee commenced this attack. We pro­pose to show to this jury that the attack was made in defiance of the authorities. That they not only held the lives of those emigrants secure; were not only anxious that they should be allowed to pass, but that they should be protected from the Indians, in order to show their sincerity and do what was right in view of the circumstances, made a solemn agreement there among themselves that the emigrants should not be interfered with until a dispatch could be sent to Governor Young and returned. We propose to show that that dispatch was sent to Governor Young by that messenger, with instructions not to spare horseflesh, but to ride there day and night; that before this messenger returned, John D. Lee, in defiance of that council, massacred the emigrants.

SPICER - If the gentleman proposes to prove that Lee did anything con­trary to the orders of the Church Council, we will withdraw our objec­tions. But we know the prosecution will fail in the effort. Lee did noth­ing that was contrary to Council, and the fact is, he obeyed orders.

HOWARD - Mr. Morrill, the court directs that you state what was done at that Council?

A:.  As I said, there appeared to be some confusion in that Council. I inquired in a friendly way what was up. I was told that there was an emigrant train that passed along down to near Mountain Meadows, and that they had made threats in regard to us as a people - said they would destroy every d--d Mormon. There was an army coming on the south and north, and it created some little excitement. I made two or three replies in a kind of debate of measures that were taken into considera­tion, discussing the object, what method we thought best to take in regard to protecting the lives of the citizens

My objections were not coincided with. At last we touched upon the topic like this: We should still keep quiet, and a dispatch should be sent to Governor Young to know what would be the best course. The vote was unanimous. I considered it so. It seemed to be the understanding that on the coming morning, or next day, there should be a messenger dispatched. I took some pains to inquire and know if it would be sent in the morning. The papers were said to be made out, and Governor Young should be informed, and no hostile course pursued till his return. I returned back to Fort Johnson, feeling that all was well. About eight and forty hours before the messenger returned - business called me to Cedar City, and I learned that the job had been done, that is, the destruction of the emigrants had taken place. I can't give any further evidence on the subject at present.

Q: What was the name of the messenger sent to Salt Lake?

A: James Haslem.

Cross examined by W.W. BISHOP –

Q: You think that about forty-eight hours before the messenger returned from Salt Lake, you learned that the job was done, the people killed at Mountain Meadows. Do you mean by that, the killing that had been talked of at that Council?

A: I suppose it was, sir.

Q: Who was present at that Council that you recollect?

A: Mr. Smith.

Q: Give me the name of any there that you can call to mind?

A: I think Isaac C. Haight was there.

Q: Was John D. Lee present?

A: No, sir, not to my knowl­edge

Q: Did you see that messenger start to Brigham Young?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you see the message that he took to Brigham Young?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you ever read it?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you know, or have any knowledge that any written communication was given by the Council to anyone to carry to President Young?

A: The understanding of the Council was that one should be written out for him prior to his starting.

Q: Do you know of your own knowledge that one was written out?

A: I did­n't see Mr. Haight, but he should have made it out in time. I didn't see the paper

Q: Then the understanding of the Council, as I take it, was this, that different parties presented different plans for having the people follow the emigrants; that after all this argument it was agreed by the parties there that a messenger should go to Brigham Young for instructions as to how the people should treat the emigrants in that train, and nothing should be done with those emigrants until that messenger returned?

A: That was the agreement - I understood it so.

Q: Who else did they agree to send a messenger to?

A: I heard of no other but Governor Young. That was my proposition.

Q: Then you never heard of a messenger being sent to any other place, or to any other party, from that Council?

A: No, I did not pay any attention to any other point, or what was considered; only the one point that a messenger should go to President Young.

Redirect by HOWARD –

Q: Did you understand that a messenger was to be sent down to John D. Lee?

A: I did, but I did not see him start. I understood that at the same time a messenger was to be sent.

Q: What did you understand?

A: I understood that there was to be word sent down towards Pinto Creek.

Q: For what purpose?

A: To have the thing stayed according to contract, to agreement made.

Q: What do you mean by the thing being stayed? Was the massacre of that emigrant train discussed there at all?

A: It was, sir; and some were in favor of it, and some were not.

Q: Who were they?

A: Bishop Smith, I considered, was the hardest man I had to contend with.

Q: Who else spoke about it?

A: Isaac Haight and one or two others. I recollect my companions more than anyone else.

Q: They were very anxious and rabid were they not?

A: They seemed to think it would be best to kill the emigrants. Some of the emigrants swore that they had killed old Joseph Smith; there was quite a little excitement there.

Q: You have given us the names of two who were in favor of killing those emigrants - who were the others?

A: Those were my companions, Isaac C. Haight and Klingensmith. I recollect no others.

Q: You remember that council, and the agreement that they would not do anything until word came back from President Young?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Although you didn't see either of those messengers start, you under­stood messengers were sent each way

A: Yes, sir; to stay the opposition until that messenger returned.

Re-cross examination –

Q: You say you understood a messenger was to be sent to Pinto Creek. Did John D. Lee live at Pinto Creek?

A: He lived at Harmony.

Q: Was it mentioned in that Council that a messenger was to be sent to Pinto Creek to stay the thing until the other messenger got back?

A: Understand me, there was nothing said in that Council in regard to Pinto, only that the thing should be stayed. They took such measures to stay it as they thought proper. After the messenger, Mr. Haslem, returned I asked Mr. Haight about it, and he said he had sent word to let them pass, of course. That was the end of my experience in regard to it.

HOWARD-

Q: Where did John D. Lee live at that time?

A: He lived at Harmony.

Q: How far is Harmony from Pinto Creek?

A: I don't know.

Q: What was his position at that time?

A: He was a man of some influence among the Indians, and also held a position in the military.

Q: Was he not Indian Farmer?

A: I think he had done something towards it. One thing I passed over at that Council; I inquired by what authority they were doing it, and they said by their own authority. Says I, has Dame got a letter here; is there anything from Mr. Dame of Parowan? They said no. I demanded a written letter or order from him before I would act; they said they had none.

SAMUEL KNIGHT TESTIMONY (witness for the prosecution)

Q: Where do you live?

A: I live at Santa Clara.

Q: How long have you lived there?

A: In the neighborhood of twenty-two years.

Q: Where did you live in '57?

A: I lived at Santa Clara; that was my house.  I lived on the Mountain Meadows. I was stopping on the Mountain Meadows that summer.

Q: Will you state how you came up to Mountain Meadows, and how you were situated there?

A: My family was sick at the time, and I moved my family up on account of the hot weather. I was herding stock at the Meadows and milking cows.

Q: Who was with you?

A: Jake Hamblin and myself were proprietors.

Q: Describe that locality to the court and jury?

A: The location in at the north end of what is termed Meadow Valley.

Q: How long is the Meadow Valley?

A: Four miles long, and about one mile wide.

Q: Is it entirely surrounded by mountains and hills?

A: Yes, sir, it is entire­ly surrounded, except a gap at this end - the gap at which Hamblin's Ranch was situated, and the gap at the other end leads you out on the desert. It has a stream that leads to the Santa Clara stream.

Q: On the first of September, 1857, you say you were stopping there with your wife, who was out of health?

    A: A few days before she had been confined, and was lying nearly at the point of death; we were living in a wagon box by the side of Jake Hamblin's board shanty.

Q: Did you about that time go down to your place at Santa Clara?


A: Yes, sir, from Mountain Meadows. I went down a few days previous to this occurrence - this massacre - to see to some business down there - about watering the crop there.

Q: What time did you return?

A: It is not in my memory, the day of the week.

Q: With reference to the general massacre?

A: It was the evening after it had been done in the morning - that is, the first attack.

Q: I mean with reference to the general massacre of the women and chil­dren?

 A: That was nearly a week, I think.

 Q: You are sure about that, are you?

 A: I don't exactly remember, but it was several days.

 Q: What do you mean by the first attack, and from whom did you get your information?

 A: What information I got was from John D. Lee.

Q: State the particulars?

 A: As I said before, I was on my way to where I was staying at the time from my home at Santa Clara. From the ranch to Santa Clara settlement was thirty-five miles.

Q: How far below the lower mountain of the Mountain Meadows?

A: About ten miles to where I met John D. Lee. I think he had on a hickory shirt, a straw hat, and homespun pants.

 Q: Did you have any conversation?

 A: Yes, sir. As I was riding along he hailed me.

 Q: Who was with you?

 A: I don't know that it is proper for me to state.

 Q: Had you up to that time known any thing about the attack on the emi­grants?

A: No, sir, I had not.

Q: Did you notice any thing peculiar about John D. Lee at that time?

A: He showed me some bullet holes in his clothing, and may be one or two in his hat.

 Q: State the conversation.

A: All the conversation?

 Q: You can tell what you recollect.

 A: I think he told me that he had made an attack with the Indians, and got repulsed.

Q: When did he say he had made it?

A: I think that morning at daylight, or near daylight.

 Q: Do you know whether he told you so or not?

A: I am pretty positive he did.

Q: Did he tell you any thing about any escape that he had had?

A: He said he had run a narrow escape, showing me the holes in his hat and shirt, where he had narrowly escaped being shot.

Q: State all the conversation.

A: He rode along with us up to some eight or ten miles of where his camp was. When I saw him it was getting dusk, and we rode along together as far as the camp.

Q: Was he alone when he met you?

A: Yes, sir, as far as I know.

Q: Did he tell you whether any other white man had been with him in the attack?

A: I am not certain. I got the impression from what he told me that there was not.

Q: Did he tell you from whom he got the bullets through his clothes, or not?

A: I took it, of course.

Q: Did he say he got it on that assault on the emigrants?

A: I can't give the exact language.

Q: What was the substance of what he told you about it?

A: I collected from what he said that he had attacked the camp of these emigrants with the Indians, and that in making the attack he received the shots from the camp, that the bullets had come near to him, one through his shirt and another through his hat.

Q: Did he say anything about having a narrow escape?

A: I think he did.

Q: What camp did he refer to?

A: The camp of the Mountain Meadows emigrants.

Q: You say he came back part of the way to the Mountain Meadows?

A: I don't know but what he went clear across the Meadows, I am not posi­tive. I know he rode back with me. He rode back to where the camp was, at least, but whether he stopped there or not I will not be positive.

Q: Did you see him go towards the Indian camp afterwards?

A: I didn't know where the Indian camp was. It was in the night. He came to me about dusk. It was eight or nine o'clock when we got to where the camp was located. I went right over to my home.

Q: State whether you noticed anything peculiar about Mr. Lee's person, aside from his dress. No, nothing more than what I have stated.

A: State whether he had any paint on him. I didn't notice any. It was between sundown and daylight. It was nearly dusk when I first saw him. We hadn't talked but a few minutes, when it was dark.

Q:  long a time passed until the general massacre?

A: Some five or six days.

Q: Did you remain there with your wife during all that time?

 A: Yes, sir, with the exception of being out after my stock once or twice.

Q: Had you anything to do with Lee, or see him after that time?

A: He was over at Hamblin's ranch a few times.

 Q: What was he there for?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did he come alone?

A: He was there with other men, but how he came I don't know.

Q: Did he at any time come to you to get your teams?

A: Yes, sir.

 Q: What day was that with reference to the massacre of the men, women and children?

A: It was the day it was done.

Q: What time?

A: I think it was a little before 12 o'clock, the middle of the day.

Q: Who came with him?

A: I think it was Klingensmith.

Q: Where were you, and what were you doing?

A: I was at home waiting upon my sick wife, who was there in the wagon, and doing chores nec­essary to be done about home.

Q: State the conversation that took place between you and Lee, or you and Klingensmith, in the presence of Lee, about what they came for?

A: They told me they came to get my team and wagon to go over and haul away the sick and wounded from the train, and take them back to the settlements where they could care for them, as wagons were scarce. I didn't consent st first, I told them that I didn't want to go, that my family needed my presence at home. They insisted that I should go and said that duty called me to go. I said if the team went I should go myself with it. My team was a young team and had just been broke a few days, and the horses were fractious.

Q: From that point what was done?

A: Well, I went over. I hitched up my team and went over. Went with a common lumber wagon and box on it.

Q: Did you leave your wife there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Where did you go?

A: I went right on to the Mountain Meadows, right on to the south end of the Mountain Meadows, or near there. I drove up to a camp of Indians and men camped somewhere to the left of the road, probably half a mile, may be not so far, at a little spring to the left of the road, and waited there a little while. I stopped some four or five rods from this camp and stood by my team until I was told to drive down towards the camp.

Q: Who told you?

A: It is not in my memory.

Q: Did you drive down towards the camp?

A: I did.

Q: What camp?

A: The emigrant camp.

Q: Did any other conveyance go down at the same time?

A: Yes, sir, anoth­er wagon, I went behind it.

Q: Did you see Lee there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Tell what he did from the first time you saw him that morning on that particular piece of ground?

A: I don't know what he did all the time. While I was waiting at the camp I don't know that I saw him while I was there.

Q: How far was that from the emigrants?

A: I think nearly half a mile.

Q: Did you see anybody go to that emigrant camp?

A: No, sir. I saw a man car­rying a white flag.

Q: Who was that man?

A: I could not tell.

Q: Was anybody with him?

A: Yes, sir, I think John D. Lee was with him, or near him, and walked down to the camp.

Q: What occurred there?

A: They walked with this white flag near the camp, and another man met them with a white rag on a stick. He came from the emigrant camp, and they met some distance from the camp, and held a consultation for a few minutes, and then we were told to drive along, or motioned to.

Q: Did any other man besides this man and John D. Lee go?

A: Not any dis­tance. I don't remember that they did.

Q: Who held that consultation?

A: I was not acquainted with them, and was some distance from them, but I think it was John D. Lee, the man that carried the flag, and one or two who came from the emigrant camp.

Q: Who motioned for you to go along after the consultation?

A: I can't tell, but the whole fraternity up there moved along with the wagons.

Q: When you got down to the camp what occurred?

A: My wagon was loaded with some guns, some bedding, and a few individuals.

Q: Who superintended that loading up?

A: John D. Lee.

Q: What guns were loaded into your wagons?

A: The guns from the emi­grant camp

Q: When the emigrants came out afterwards, were they armed or not?

A: They were not; not that I saw.

Q: What did they load into your wagon?

A: Guns, bedding, and some cloth­ing of different kinds, and several persons got in. I think three or four got in

Q: What were those persons?

A: As near as I can recollect, there were two men, one woman, and, I think, some children.

Q: State whether those men were wounded then, sick men, or what?

A: I think they were wounded, but I stood holding my team.

Q: State whether it was quite necessary for you to give all your attention to your team?

A: I considered it so.

Q: Then what occurred?

A: After they were loaded in we were told to drive on towards home.

Q: By whom?

A: I can't recollect.

Q: Did you drive along?

A: We did.

Q: Do you know what was put into the other wagon?

A: Mostly people.

Q: Were both those wagons loaded from the emigrant camp?

A: Yes, sir. I started towards my home, north across the Meadows, lengthwise of the Meadows. It led to the north.

Q: After you started, how close did the other wagon follow?

A: I followed it; it went ahead.

Q: What followed you?

A: The men, women and children; coming along after we drove out a little ways.

Q: Did you understand, from what you saw there, that the emigrants vacated that camp and followed you?

A: I did, sir.

Q: As you passed along, did you go with them, or did you go faster?

A: We traveled a little faster.

Q: How far in advance of them did you get?

A: I think we got, may be, a quarter of a mile. It might not have been that far, but quite a little dis­tance

Q: What order did those emigrants march in, whether single file, two abreast, or how?

A: I could not give any testimony on that. I did not look back to see.

Q: Who accompanied you with your wagon, who came along?

A: I remem­ber John D. Lee being along with the wagons

Q: Ahead of the emigrants?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did anything occur after you had got up to the point designated as, perhaps, a quarter of a mile ahead of those emigrants?

A: The first thing that I heard had occurred. I heard a gun fired.

Q: Where was that gun?

A: I don't know the locality exactly. It was behind me.

Q: Was it near you, or down where the emigrants were?

A: It was below.

Q: How far behind you?

A: I should judge nearly a quarter of a mile, the first gun I heard.

Q: What occurred then?

A: I looked around and saw the Indians rising up from behind the brush, and went to butchering these emigrants.

Q: Did you see anything of them?

A: I didn't see anything of the emigrants.

Q: Did you see any of those emigrants in your wagon interfered with?

A: No, sir; not after I heard the first sound of the gun. I leaped from my wagon to see to my team.

Q: Did you see John D. Lee do anything to any of those emigrants?

A: I saw John D. Lee raise something in the act of striking a person - I think it was a woman. I saw that person fall, but my attention was attracted at the same time to my team jumping and lunging.

Q: What became of that woman?

A: I could not say.

Q: Will you state to the jury the manner of that striking?

A: Well, as near as I can recollect it, it was done as though he had a club or gun in his hands, but which of the two I cannot tell. She was falling when I first saw her. When I turned my eyes away she was falling.

Q: You know he struck that woman?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Either with a gun or with a club?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Your team, you say, became very fractious. Is that all you saw John Lee do?

A: That is all I could be positive about.

Q: What was he doing besides that?

A: I could not be positive what he was doing all the time.

Q: State whether all of those people were killed there and then?

A: They were; those in the wagon were all killed.

Q: Was it in your wagon or the one behind you that John D. Lee struck that woman?

A: It was in the one ahead of me.

Q: Was that woman killed?

A: I think she was. They were all killed.

Q: How many cattle had this emigrant train?

A: I don't know, sir.  Should judge three or four hundred head.

Q: Do you know who drove these cattle away from that ground?

A: No, sir; I do not.

Q: Do you know whose men drove them off?

A: No, sir; only by report - by rumor.

Q: Did you see Lee drive any of them?

A: No, sir; I did not.

Q: Did you hear him say anything about it?

A: I did not.

Q: Did Lee remain there until all in the wagons were killed?

A: I think he did.

Q: Where did you go then?

A: I drove immediately home.

Q: Which way did Lee go?

A: I don't know - he was on the ground when I left.

Q: Do you know the names of any of those parties who were killed there?

A: No, sir; I do not.

Cross examined –

Q: How many people were present around the wagons when you say you saw Lee strike the woman?

A: I don't know how many.

Q: Were there any others there except Lee and yourself?

A: I have an impression that there were, but I don't know who they were. I have always had an idea that there were one or two more men.

Q: Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that there were?

A: Yes, sir; there was another man that drove the other wagon, but how many more I don't know.

Q: You don't know the names of the men?

A: Not that I recollect of.

Q: Were any Indians around there?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Any around the wagons?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you see them take any part in the killing?

A: Yes, sir; they took some part in the killing. There were not more than one or two men there, John D. Lee and the men that drove the wagon.

Q: How many Indians?

A: I can't tell.

Q: Isn't it a matter of fact that about that time you wanted to got away from there, and to see as little as possible?

A: I paid just as little attention as I possibly could.

Q: Didn't you make an effort to see as little of it as you could?

A: I did, sir.

Q: That explains why you did not see all of it?

A: Yes, sir, I took all the pains I could to see as little as I could.

Q: Did not the Indians raise a yell, and make a rush for the wagon before you jumped out?

A: Yes, sir, or about that time.

Q: Were they not surrounding the wagons at the time you saw Lee strike?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: There were Indians all around and close to you at the time?

A: Yes, sir, there were Indians a round; quite a number all round there.

Q: Did they rush toward the people in the wagons with hostile inten­tions

A: Yes, sir, with apparently hostile intentions.

Q: You saw them kill a number of people - didn't they kill that woman?

A: It was my impression that John D. Lee killed her.

Q: Do you know?

A: Yes, sir, I do.

Q: Did you see him do anything else except strike?

A: No, sir.

Q: That much you did see?

A: Yes, sir, I did.

Q: Who was that man with you at the Meadows, the first time you saw John D. Lee, the night after the first attack?

A: I decline to tell.

Redirect -

Q:  State where those cattle of the emigrants were at the time of the massacre.

A:  They were north a little; up this way.

Q: How soon after that were they driven away?

A: I think next day.

Q: Do you know whose men drove them away?

A: I do not.

Q: Were the emigrants' wagons destroyed there on the ground, or were they taken away?

A: I don't know. They passed along.

Q: Was the field cleared of the emigrant property?

A: Yes, sir, cattle and everything.

Q: Were any wagons burned or destroyed?

A: No, sir, not that I know of.

Q: How long did you stay there after that?

A: Nearly a month.

SAMUEL McMURDY, witness  for the  prosecution

Q: Where do you live now?

A: I live In Cache County, Paradise.

Q: Did you live in any other place than Paradise in 1857?

A: I lived at Cedar City. I don't recollect dates.

Q: Did you live there at the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: State whether you were called upon to go to Mountain Meadows?

A: I was called upon to go and take my team and wagon.

Q: By whom?

A: I believe it was John M. Higbee that called me.

Q: State from that point the circumstances?

A: I was threshing my grain. I had my grain spread out in the yard, and was tramping it with horses at the time I was called upon. I was notified to leave in two hours' notice. It was sometime in the afternoon that I was called upon.

Q: Of what day?

A: I could not state.

Q: With reference to the date of the general massacre?

A: I think It was a day prior to it.

Q: Was it stated to you for what purpose you were to go there?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you know?

A: No, sir.

Q: Did you go?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who went with you?

A: There were a number that went in the wagon with me. Some I can recollect, Klingensmith for one, a man by the name of Hopkins, and two or three more besides that went during the time that I went down, I understood from the men that were in the wagon. I asked them what was the matter. They told me that the emigrants had been attacked, and we had to go down and arrest the attack, if possible. That was the purpose that I expected to go for - was to preserve the emigrants from the Indians.

Q: What time did you get there?

A: It was in the afternoon when we start­ed - late. It must have been way in the night when we got there. I could not tell you the time. We traveled a good many hours in the night. Got there and turned out the horses and camped.

Q: Did you stay until morning?

A: Yes, sir; staid there till morning, and dur­ing the next day I got up my horses

Q: Anybody give you orders?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Who?

A: John D. Lee. He told me to take the wagon and follow him to camp.

Q: What camp?

A: The camp of the emigrants.

Q: The emigrants that were afterwards killed?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Did you go?

A: I did.

Q: State what you saw.

A: I went with him to camp, and there was another wagon, if I recollect right. The man that drove the wagon was a stranger to me. I never saw him before. When we got within a short distance of the camp there was a man with a flag of truce sent out.

Q: Who was that man?

A: His name was Mr. Bateman.

Q: Where is he?

A: Dead.

Q: Where was he sent from?

A: Sent from where we stood with the wag­ons

Q: Who went with him?

A: John D. Lee followed immediately afterwards.

Q: What occurred?

A: A man came out from the camp and had an interview with John D. Lee.

Q: What was the substance of that conversation?

A: I was too far off to tell. I saw Lee and this man talking.

Q: Did you hear any of the talking?

A: Not any that I could distinguish.

Q: After they talked what was done?

A: After they talked they seemed to come to an understanding, ten, fifteen or twenty minutes, then Lee ordered us to drive up the wagons. We drove up the wagons. The emi­grants, assisted by Lee, loaded the wagons. My wagon was loaded with some bedding, some truck of different kinds, belonging to the people that got in. Some would have their things with them, as if they were going a journey. A number got in, men, women and children, from the emigrant camp, some of them apparently wounded. I could not say how many, it is so long ago. I never charged my memory with it. I could not state how many there were.

Q: Go on.

A: We were ordered to start out by John D. Lee, and we started out from that place.

Q: State whether the other wagon was loaded also?

A: It was.

Q: Were there any guns put into either wagon?

A: There were not in mine.

Q: Did you at any time leave your team?

A: No, sir.

Q: When John D. Lee directed you to drive, what took place?

A: We pro­ceeded some distance on the Meadows. Mine was the head team

Q: Who accompanied you?

A: John D. Lee was walking behind the wagon, between the two wagons.

By THE COURT –

Q:  Were there any persons in those two wagons?

A: Yes, sir. They were loaded up with persons and things.

Q: Were both of those wagons loaded with men, women and children from that camp of emigrants?

A: Yes, sir, and other things besides.

Q: How many got into your wagon?

A: I could not say. It is impossible for me to tell. I should think half a dozen.

Q: What were they - men and women; any children in yours?

A: I think there were some small children.

Q: And as you started on you saw Lee take a position between the two wagons and walk on behind you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: How far behind you?

A: I could not tell you. I had as much as I could do to attend to my team. We must have been quite a little distance ahead of the other team. My team was a very fast walking team. Lee checked me up several times. I had to hold on to the lines.

Q: Did he give you any reasons for it?

A: No, sir. I out walked him. We walked very fast.

Q: How many times did he tell you not to walk so fast?

A: Several times.

HOWARD –

Q:  What occurred from that point?

A: He called to me to halt after we got out of sight of the camp.

Q: Who did?

A: John D. Lee. When we got out of sight, over the hill, there is where we passed out of sight of everything. There is a rising ground there. We were this side of it, and everything back towards the emigrants was out of sight. When we got to this place Lee ordered me to halt. At that instant I heard the sound of a gun. I turned and looked over my shoulder, and Lee had his gun to his shoulder, and when the gun had exploded I saw, I think it was a woman, fall backwards. I had to tend to my team at the time.

Q: Who discharged that gun?

A: John D. Lee must have discharged it.

Q: Did he hold it in his hand?

A: Yes, sir. He must have hit her in the back of the head. She fell immediately.

Q: Go on.

A: I turned round. It seemed to me like I heard sounds of strik­ing with a heavy instrument, like a gun would make, but I never saw any striking done. But I turned round to the other side a few minutes after­wards, and saw Lee draw his pistol and shoot from two to three in the head of those who were in the wagon

Q: Did he kill them?

A: He must have killed them.

Q: What were these he shot - men, women or children?

A: Men and women.

Q: And they fell off underneath the wagon, then and there?

A: I could not say then and there. They must have been all killed.

Q: Did you go back at all?

A: No, sir.

Q: Never wanted to go back?

A: No, sir - never.

Q: Who fired the first gun - which was the first gun fired?

A: It would be impossible for me to tell. The first gun I heard was the first gun fired right at the back of me that attracted my attention.

Q: You looked around and saw the gun in Lee's hands?

A: Yes, sir; that was the first gun I heard.

Q: Were there immediately volleys of firing?

A: Yes, sir; I heard firing immediately afterwards.

Q: Was that the signal to begin firing?

A: Yes, sir, that was the beginning. How long after Lee told you to halt was that firing?

A: It was instantly done.

Q: And you looked around and saw the gun?

A: Yes, sir.

Cross examined –

Q: You say that you got your orders from Higbee to go down there?

A: I believe it was from Higbee, but I am not sure. I am almost positive it was from him.

Q: Did Higbee go with you?

A: I don't recollect.

Q: Where did you camp that night?

A: On the Meadows.

Q: How many men were there?

A: I could not say.

Q: About how many men were there?

A: I could not give it, because I went in the dark, and had my team to hunt next morning. I turned them out, and it took up all my attention.

Q: Next morning how many men did you see there?