|
HARRY SAMIT, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED
3 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor?
4 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. NOVAK
7 Q. Sir, could you introduce yourself to the good jurors by
8 telling them your first and your last name, spelling both?
9 A. Harry Samit, H-a-r-r-y S-a-m-i-t.
10 Q. Mr. Samit, could you tell the folks by whom you're employed?
11 A. The Federal Bureau of Investigation.
12 Q. In what capacity?
13 A. As a special agent.
14 Q. And how long have you been a special agent with the FBI?
15 A. Since January of 1999.
16 Q. Is that when you left the FBI academy?
17 A. No. I left the FBI academy in May of 1999.
18 Q. And when you left the academy in May of 1999, where did you
19 get assigned to?
20 A. The Minneapolis field office.
21 Q. And have you been assigned there since then?
22 A. I have.
23 Q. All right. So you remain a special agent up there in
24 Minneapolis; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
794
1 Q. And could you tell the good folks on what -- what kind of
2 assignment do you have as a special agent with the FBI up there in
3 Minneapolis?
4 A. I'm an investigator assigned to the Joint Terrorism Task
5 Force.
6 Q. Tell the folks what the Joint Terrorism Task Force is.
7 A. The Joint Terrorism Task Force is an organization of law
8 enforcement agents and officers who investigate international
9 terrorism under the framework set up by the FBI. It's got
10 personnel from a variety of different law enforcement agencies.
11 Q. Do you want to list some of the different agencies that work
12 with you on that Joint Terrorism Task Force?
13 A. Immigration and Naturalization Service, United States Secret
14 Service, local police officers, sheriff's deputies, a variety of
15 different investigators.
16 Q. And beyond your assignment on the, on the -- JTTF is the
17 acronym for the Joint Terrorism Task Force; is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Beyond your assignment to the JTTF, can you tell us what else
20 you do there as a special agent up there in Minnesota?
21 A. At the time in 1999, I was assigned as a pilot with the FBI
22 as well.
23 Q. We're going to talk about your pilot training in a second,
24 but your squad that you're assigned to is squad what?
25 A. Squad 5.
795
1 Q. And squad 5 up there includes the investigation of what types
2 of crime?
3 A. In, in 2001, it included the investigation of international
4 terrorism, domestic terrorism, and foreign counterintelligence.
5 Q. And would it be fair to say that since your inception into
6 the FBI, your initial assignment up there in Minneapolis, you've
7 basically been working full-time on terrorism investigations?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, could you tell us, have you received any type of
10 specialized training in the world of terrorism?
11 A. I have. During the FBI academy, the new agent training,
12 there was a terrorism integrated case scenario which I
13 participated in along with my class. I also attended a basic
14 international terrorism in-service after graduating the FBI
15 academy, and then later a double agent and recruitment in-service
16 as well.
17 Q. Okay. Now, in addition to that, you're a pilot as well; is
18 that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And have you received any type of pilot training within the
21 FBI?
22 A. I have. I attended the FBI-sponsored Cessna Pilots
23 Association introduction to the Cessna 182 aircraft.
24 Q. Those are little planes; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
796
1 Q. All right.
2 A. As well as their air crew coordination seminar.
3 Q. All right. Do you want to tell the folks what you did before
4 you joined the FBI?
5 A. I was an officer in the United States Navy.
6 Q. And how long were you employed by the United States Navy?
7 A. From May of 1990 until joining the FBI in January of 1999.
8 Q. So for about nine years; is that right?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And when you left the Navy after those nine years, what was
11 your rank?
12 A. Lieutenant commander.
13 Q. Okay. So you were commissioned in what area?
14 A. In intelligence.
15 Q. All right. And what exactly -- what was your duties there in
16 the Navy as an intelligence officer?
17 A. During my time in intelligence, I spent the entire time
18 assigned to aviation commands. I was first assigned to a
19 sea-going squadron, flying aircraft off of an aircraft carrier. I
20 did an exchange tour with the Canadian Air Force at their
21 headquarters in Ottawa, and then I was an instructor at the Navy
22 Fighter Weapons School, a top gun.
23 Q. And what is it that you were supposed to do? What was your
24 job?
25 A. As an intelligence officer with aviation units, it was my job
797
1 primarily to evaluate threat air forces and air defense forces, to
2 look at their training, their capabilities, specifically with
3 regard to pilot training capabilities. We'd evaluate -- I would
4 evaluate the number of hours, the types of training they did, and
5 determine what kind of pilots they would be.
6 Q. Okay. Now, you talked to us also about the fact that you
7 went to the top gun school; is that right?
8 A. That's correct. I was there as a student, and then I stayed
9 as an instructor.
10 Q. Okay. And you have training also as a navigator; is that
11 right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And for those of us who have watched the "Top Gun" movie,
14 were you sitting in the first seat or the second seat?
15 A. The back seat.
16 Q. All right. And how much training did you get as a navigator?
17 A. Approximately six months.
18 Q. All right. And going back to your training in terms of what
19 you were supposed to analyze, how much time did you spend
20 analyzing the pilot trainings for other countries?
21 A. When I was doing threat evaluations and looking at threat air
22 forces, probably 40 to 50 percent would be evaluating the pilot
23 capabilities.
24 Q. Over what span of time?
25 A. The entire time, from 1990 -- 1991 to 1999.
798
1 Q. So during those nine years, you were -- I gather you were
2 evaluating hostile countries to see what kind of pilot training
3 that they were giving to, to members of their Air Force; is that
4 right?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. All right. Now -- so you're pretty familiar with flight
7 training; is that correct?
8 A. Flight standards, absolutely, sir.
9 Q. All right. Now, you yourself, separate from the Navy, became
10 a pilot; is that right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And when was it approximately that you became a pilot?
13 A. 1997.
14 Q. And could you tell us, what's your license certification
15 level?
16 A. I am a private pilot, single engine fixed wing land airplane,
17 and I have a complex and high-performance endorsement.
18 Q. Okay. And the private pilot license, is that known as a PPL?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And could you tell the folks how it is that you went about
21 getting your PPL?
22 A. I had flown in the Navy and decided that I enjoyed that. My
23 tour in Canada with the Canadian Air Force was a ground job. I
24 didn't get to fly, so I went and decided I wanted a private
25 pilot's license so I could do that. I went to a flying school. I
799
1 asked, inquired about price and availability. They were
2 welcoming. They said: Come on in, and we'll teach you to fly.
3 Q. And what did you have to do before they started teaching you?
4 Did you have to take any type of physical?
5 A. I did. I had to take a medical to prove that I was medically
6 fit to be able to fly.
7 Q. Does that happen with anybody? Is that required by the FAA
8 that before you can get your PPL, that you have to take some basic
9 level of a physical of some sort?
10 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
11 Q. And what's the purpose behind that? What do they examine you
12 for?
13 A. To make sure that vision, cardio, respiratory system, hearing
14 are all in accordance with my ability, with anyone's ability to
15 operate an aircraft safely.
16 Q. Okay. And did you do that?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Okay. And did you get your -- you were medically passed; is
19 that right?
20 A. I was.
21 Q. And then did you get your training there in Ottawa at that
22 flight school that you attended?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. All right. And could you tell us, when you start your flight
25 school, what's the first thing that you do?
800
1 A. In my case, I went to ground school.
2 Q. And can you tell the folks what flight school -- ground
3 school consists of?
4 A. It's academic training. Aircraft systems, navigation, rules
5 and regulations governing how you are allowed to fly an airplane.
6 Very similar to the types of aviation training that began my naval
7 aviation training.
8 Q. Okay. Thereafter, did you start taking flight training where
9 you actually flew in the plane?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. By the way, what kind of planes were you flying in at that
12 time? The little Cessnas?
13 A. Cessna 150s.
14 Q. No kind of jets or anything like that, is that right?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. Can you tell us, do you just jump in the Cessna
17 and start taking it up for a ride, or has somebody got to jump in
18 there with you?
19 A. You're in there with a qualified instructor.
20 Q. All right. And how many hours did you spend with a qualified
21 instructor in dual-flight situations, where you're not flying
22 solo?
23 A. Dual flight, where the instructor is with me in the airplane,
24 it took me about ten hours of dual flight before I was ready to
25 solo.
801
1 Q. Okay. And did you indeed solo?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. All right. And then ultimately, how many hours did it take
4 you until you were certified as a -- with your PPL license?
5 A. Just under 50.
6 Q. All right. And you got -- you were certified; is that right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And approximately how many pilot hours do you have as you sit
9 here today as a private pilot?
10 A. Approximately 250.
11 Q. And approximately how many hours do you have sitting here
12 today as a navigator?
13 A. About 350.
14 Q. Now, despite those hours, I guess combined over 500 hours,
15 have you ever tried to go up to the next step of getting your
16 commercial license?
17 A. I have not.
18 Q. How many hours do you think that it normally takes before you
19 go up to that next step?
20 MR. MAC MAHON: Objection, Your Honor. He's an FBI
21 agent, not a commercial pilot. That's irrelevant.
22 MR. NOVAK: Well, no, he's a --
23 THE COURT: He may be, but I think we've already heard a
24 great deal of this from the other witnesses, and I had assumed
25 Agent Samit was being called for other purposes.
802
1 MR. NOVAK: That's fine, Your Honor. I'll move on.
2 THE COURT: I think before you move on to a new topic,
3 this is a logical stopping point for the one-hour lunch break.
4 Agent Samit, you'll need to be back here at 1:30. We'll recess
5 court until that time.
6 (Recess from 12:28 p.m., until 1:30 p.m.)
807
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (Defendant and jury in.)
3 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Novak?
4 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed?
5 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
6 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
7 HARRY SAMIT, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED,
8 RESUMED
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION - (continued)
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Agent Samit, on August the 15th of 2001, were you assigned
12 still as the special agent to the FBI in Minneapolis?
13 A. I was.
14 Q. And at that time did you have an occasion to get assigned to
15 the investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And at that time who was your supervisor?
18 A. I had an acting supervisor, Gregory Jones.
19 Q. And was there a fellow special agent by the name of Dave Rapp
20 that also worked with you?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Was he relatively new?
23 A. He was very new, yes, sir.
24 Q. Do you want to tell us how it is that you -- how the
25 investigation into Zacarias Moussaoui began?
808
1 A. Special Agent Rapp had complaint duty that day. It is a
2 rotating shift. All the agents in the office have to answer phone
3 calls from the public and other law enforcement agencies. Special
4 Agent Rapp had occasion to take a call from Pan Am, and the
5 person, the caller, Tim Nelson, provided some fairly significant
6 information.
7 Q. What was the initial information that you-all received there
8 from Pan Am?
9 A. That they had a student they were training at the flight
10 academy on simulators for 747-400 series aircraft who was very
11 unusual.
12 Q. Okay. Did they give you the student's name?
13 A. They did.
14 Q. And did they tell you why it is that the student was unusual?
15 A. Yes, sir. They said that he didn't have any ratings, any
16 aviation ratings or licenses.
17 Q. What does that mean to you as a criminal investigator?
18 A. It means that for a person to want to do expensive aviation
19 training, typically it is going to lead somewhere, to a job
20 opportunity or to a job enhancement.
21 Q. And by not pursuing the ratings, that means they are just not
22 doing it for the -- to benefit themselves financially; is that
23 right?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Not worth the investment, right?
809
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Did they tell you whether the student, Mr. Moussaoui, was
3 employed by an airline?
4 A. They did. They said he was not. He had no affiliation with
5 any airline.
6 Q. Was that unusual?
7 A. It was.
8 Q. Why was that unusual?
9 A. Because the typical student, as was explained to us, is an
10 airline pilot or is seeking employment with an airline and is
11 already qualified to do so.
12 Q. And was it also -- would it also be the norm that that's who
13 would pay for this expensive training?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, this is an FBI agent. We
15 don't need leading questions every time for him, Your Honor, if we
16 could get the testimony.
17 THE COURT: Objection sustained. You can't lead,
18 Mr. Novak.
19 MR. NOVAK: Okay.
20 BY MR. NOVAK:
21 Q. Why would that be unusual?
22 A. Because the airlines typically would pay for the student, or
23 the student would be making an investment in their own training in
24 order to become eligible to be hired by an airline.
25 Q. Okay. Did they tell you how much the training for
810
1 Mr. Moussaoui cost?
2 A. The caller didn't know for sure, but said it was between 8-
3 and 9,000 dollars.
4 Q. Okay. And what, if any, information did you get about the
5 amount of hours or licensing that Mr. Moussaoui had?
6 A. It was low. It was less than 60 hours of flight time.
7 Q. All right. Did you receive information about what type of
8 plane it was that Mr. Moussaoui was pursuing the training on?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. What type of plane was that?
11 A. 747-400 series airliner.
12 Q. All right. And could you tell us, are you familiar with the
13 notion of a glass cockpit?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Could you tell us what the glass cockpit means to you and the
16 investigatory significance of that?
17 A. What it means to me as a pilot is the way the information is
18 displayed to the pilot in the cockpit is different. Older
19 airplanes, as compared to glass cockpit airplanes, have individual
20 gauges that display the information, critical information that the
21 pilot needs. When an airplane is said to have a glass cockpit, it
22 relies on a much smaller number of multi-function displays,
23 television screens in the cockpit.
24 Q. What, if any, impact did that have in terms of you in terms
25 of your thinking about whether criminality was afoot?
811
1 A. My initial thought was that it's a simpler interface for a
2 relative novice, so that if someone had illegitimate purposes in
3 mind for wanting to receive the flight training, that would be an
4 ideal type of aircraft, because they wouldn't need as much
5 training and experience if they were to try and fly it.
6 Q. And what if any impact would the glass cockpit have on the
7 number of -- if there was criminality afoot, the number of
8 accomplices that would have to be involved?
9 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, that's an entirely
10 speculative question. He is not an expert in hijackings with
11 glass cockpits or not or anything else.
12 MR. NOVAK: This goes to why --
13 THE COURT: I think, both being an experienced pilot and
14 an investigator, this witness can testify about what it was about
15 a glass cockpit that would give him concern. And I believe that's
16 the way the question is phrased.
17 MR. NOVAK: That's what the purpose of the question is,
18 yes.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 THE WITNESS: The other issue would pertain to the
21 number of crew members in the cockpit. Because the glass cockpit
22 airplanes typically have increased automation, they need fewer
23 people in the cockpit. And so in order to take over an airplane,
24 it would be the difference between having to overwhelm one or two
25 people as opposed to three or four.
812
1 BY MR. NOVAK:
2 Q. All right. Now, in addition to that information, did you ask
3 for and receive any additional background information, identifiers
4 or anything like that from the defendant?
5 A. We were able to get his name, his date of birth, and the fact
6 that he was, said he lived in England and was from France, at
7 least initially.
8 Q. Now, once you got that information, did you open up a case,
9 an investigation?
10 A. We did.
11 Q. Could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen what kind of
12 case that you opened up?
13 A. Within probably 30 minutes of receiving that telephone call
14 we opened an intelligence investigation.
15 Q. As an agent that's assigned to investigate terrorism
16 organizations, could you tell us, is there more than one type of
17 case that you can open up as an investigator?
18 THE COURT: I think -- wait, Mr. Novak. The better form
19 of that question was in that time period, because you are looking
20 at the 2001 time period.
21 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor, excuse me, you are right.
22 BY MR. NOVAK:
23 Q. Back in August of 2001, could you tell us what type of
24 investigatory cases that you could open up?
25 A. During that time we had the intelligence investigation, which
813
1 we did actually open on Mr. Moussaoui, and we also had a criminal
2 investigation.
3 Q. All right. I want to ask you to explain the difference.
4 Starting with the criminal, what is -- criminal investigation,
5 what was your goal back in 2001 if you were to open up just a
6 standard criminal investigation?
7 A. Like any other type of crime that the FBI investigates, the
8 goal of a criminal investigation pertaining to terrorism is to
9 collect evidence of a crime relating to international terrorism.
10 Q. And would that -- with a mind-set towards what?
11 A. Towards prosecution.
12 Q. All right. Now, contrast that with opening up an
13 intelligence investigation, what's, what do you do there?
14 A. An intelligence investigation is designed to generate
15 intelligence, intelligence whose goal would be to safeguard
16 national security.
17 Q. And by safeguarding national security, what does that mean?
18 What would you try to accomplish towards that goal?
19 A. We would attempt to use any information derived from a case,
20 an intelligence investigation, to strengthen our ability to deal
21 with threats to national security, whether it be espionage or
22 terrorists, ways to implement countermeasures to deny them their
23 objectives, without necessarily prosecuting anybody, but we could
24 still take steps, countermeasures to prevent them from
25 accomplishing their goals.
814
1 Q. Explain to us, if you are not going to arrest somebody, how
2 is it that you could end up protecting national security during
3 your investigation? What are the types of things you can do?
4 A. We can use that intelligence to deny personnel access to the
5 United States, to certain classified information; we can use that
6 intelligence to implement countermeasures, security
7 countermeasures to make whole sectors safer. Any time information
8 comes of a threat, or intelligence comes regarding a threat, the
9 government, without arresting anyone, could implement
10 countermeasures which would counter that.
11 Q. Okay. Now, what if during the course of an investigation, an
12 intelligence investigation, you decide that you have gathered
13 enough information to charge somebody criminally? Are you allowed
14 to do that?
15 THE COURT: Were you allowed to do that, in that time
16 period?
17 MR. MAC MAHON: Time frame.
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. All my questions, I was going to say all my questions are
20 dedicated to that August of 2001 time period, okay?
21 A. Yes, sir. At the time we could, there was a mechanism by
22 which a criminal investigation and prosecution could occur, but
23 there were a number of steps that needed to be gone through before
24 that could happen.
25 Q. Could you explain to us what those steps were?
815
1 A. There was a term called the wall. And the wall was supposed
2 to be a barrier between intelligence and criminal investigations
3 wherein information developed on the intelligence investigation
4 could not be supplied at the wall to those working the criminal
5 investigation.
6 Q. And what was the purpose of the wall?
7 A. To prevent abuse, to prevent people in the FBI and law
8 enforcement from utilizing information gathered under the auspices
9 of national security to be used to prosecute someone, without
10 safeguards and checks imposed on that.
11 Q. Are there a difference -- back in August of 2001, was there a
12 difference in terms of the safeguards that were in place in terms
13 of what you needed to do for oversight purposes?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: Can we have some kind of foundation
15 here, Your Honor? We're just jumping right into a very complex
16 issue without establishing how he knows any of this, whether he
17 learned it before, whether it is something he has learned since or
18 anything else.
19 MR. NOVAK: He was an active agent.
20 THE COURT: Agent Samit, in the course of your being
21 trained to be an FBI agent, was this wall explained to you?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, it was.
23 THE COURT: Were the reasons for the wall explained to
24 you?
25 THE WITNESS: They were.
816
1 THE COURT: Was that part of the standard procedure at
2 Quantico in training new agents?
3 THE WITNESS: It was not part of the procedure at
4 Quantico but at the subsequent follow-on in-services, there were
5 classes, extensive sessions, like a whole afternoon's worth given
6 on the explanation of the wall and the separation of the two types
7 of investigations.
8 THE COURT: And those special courses, were those for
9 agents who were specializing in the kind of work you were doing;
10 that is, counterterrorism.
11 THE WITNESS: They were not.
12 THE COURT: That's more than an adequate foundation.
13 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. Now, we were talking about the wall there. Again, could you
16 explain to us the amount of safeguards that you had to, or
17 oversight that you had to go through, if you were working on the
18 intelligence side versus the criminal side?
19 A. We could -- the system was set up whereby there could be a
20 group of, separate group of agents within the same office who were
21 working criminal investigation against the same subject. It was
22 important, especially for the people working the intelligence case
23 against that person, to be very cognizant that they not share
24 information that was derived directly.
25 Instead what we were required to do during that time
817
1 period was apply to our headquarters, who would then apply to the
2 Department of Justice for authority to do that.
3 Q. Okay. And was there a particular unit within the Department
4 of Justice that you needed approval from in order to switch the
5 case from an intelligence to a criminal case?
6 A. Not to switch, not to switch the cases.
7 Q. Or share the information.
8 A. It was the Office of Intelligence Policy Review, OIPR.
9 Q. And could you tell us what impact the wall had upon you in
10 terms of going to -- well, strike that. Let me step back.
11 In a criminal case, who are the attorneys that you would
12 normally deal with if you were to pursue a criminal investigation?
13 A. Assistant United States attorneys in the District of
14 Minnesota.
15 Q. And if you opened an intelligence case, were you able to deal
16 with the assistant United States attorneys that were located there
17 in Minneapolis?
18 A. No, that would fall under the heading of our needing to go to
19 the Office of Intelligence Policy Review first for authority.
20 Q. And they would have to approve that before you could share
21 information with them; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Now, let's go back to Mr. Moussaoui, and with the information
24 that you received from the Pan Am School, you had indicated you
25 had received a number of biographical information about him. Did
818
1 you share that with any of your fellow investigators assigned to
2 the JTTF?
3 A. I did. I shared it with Immigration and Naturalization
4 Service, Special Agent John Weess.
5 Q. And he was assigned to your task force?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And he is a member of the INS; is that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Could you tell us why it is that you shared that information
10 with Agent Weess?
11 A. We had indications that Mr. Moussaoui was, in fact, a foreign
12 national, and one of the initial checks we do is to determine
13 whether that person is legally in the United States, whether they
14 entered legally initially, and whether they remain in legal status
15 now.
16 Q. Okay. And did you determine his nationality?
17 A. We did.
18 Q. What was his nationality?
19 A. His nationality -- he was carrying a French passport.
20 Q. All right. And as a result, could you tell us what a legat
21 is in the world of the FBI?
22 A. A legat is an acronym that stands for legal attache. They
23 are FBI agents who are assigned to a number of U.S. embassies
24 around the world, and they serve as the FBI's liaison to that
25 government.
819
1 Q. And back in August of 2001, did the FBI have a legat to the
2 country of France?
3 A. We did.
4 Q. And what was that person's name?
5 A. The legat's name was Enrique Camente.
6 Q. Well, who did -- did you deal with somebody in particular, an
7 assistant legat?
8 A. I did. I dealt with assistant legal attache, Jay Abbott.
9 Q. And when you found out that Mr. Moussaoui was French, did you
10 initiate a request for information from Mr. Abbott?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You would get that sometime later; is that right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. We will move on.
15 Now, in addition to finding out that he was French, did
16 Agent Weess determine, along with you, what Mr. Moussaoui's status
17 was in terms of being an immigrant into the United States?
18 A. He did. He was able to determine very quickly that
19 Mr. Moussaoui was out of status.
20 Q. Well, out of status means what?
21 A. Out of status means illegally in the United States.
22 Q. Okay. And how had he entered the United States?
23 A. Special Agent Weess's checks indicated Mr. Moussaoui entered
24 the United States on the visa waiver program.
25 Q. Could you tell us what the visa waiver program is?
820
1 A. It is -- the visa waiver program is open to citizens,
2 passport holders from a variety of countries considered friendly
3 to the United States. If you are a passport holder from one of
4 those nations, you are --
5 Q. France being one of those nations?
6 A. France being one of those nations, you are eligible, in fact,
7 rather than having to go to a U.S. consular section and applying
8 for a visa to enter the United States, you can, with your passport
9 and round trip airline tickets, apply as you're on your flight for
10 the visa waiver program. It is essentially filling out a single
11 form.
12 Q. It is a convenience for those citizens of countries that are
13 friendly with us; is that right?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Now, is there a limit on how long somebody can stay in the
16 United States who procures a visa pursuant to the visa waiver
17 program?
18 A. 90 days.
19 Q. And could you tell us what is the consequence of somebody who
20 stays longer than 90 days?
21 A. Subsequent to that 90-day period, they are subject to arrest
22 and deportation.
23 Q. And when somebody violates the 90-day rule, are they able to
24 get bond or to pursue a change in the status or anything like
25 that?
821
1 A. They are not.
2 Q. Now, when you did this check on Mr. Moussaoui, did you find
3 out when it was that he had entered the United States?
4 A. I did. Special Agent Weess's records indicated that he
5 entered on February 23rd of 2001.
6 Q. So then his 90 days would have expired on what day?
7 A. May 22nd, 2001.
8 Q. So as of August the 15th he was well over the 90-day time; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. So you were able to arrest him if you wanted to; is that
12 correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Now, by the way, when somebody is arrested for that
15 violation, what happens to them? You told us they don't get bond,
16 but what's the ultimate result? What occurs to them?
17 A. They are deported to either their country of citizenship or
18 their country of origin.
19 Q. Now, on August the 15th then did you have an occasion to
20 speak with Clancy Prevost?
21 A. I did. I spoke with him on the telephone.
22 Q. All right. And could you tell us why it is that you spoke
23 with Mr. Prevost?
24 A. I spoke with Mr. Prevost because I had been directed to him.
25 I had been informed that he was Mr. Moussaoui 's ground school
822
1 instructor and, in fact, that he would be in a position to provide
2 me some additional background information that the initial callers
3 couldn't.
4 Q. So you telephoned him?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. And could you tell us what it is that Mr. Prevost told you
7 about Mr. Moussaoui at that time?
8 A. He told us, he told me that he considered Mr. Moussaoui to be
9 an unusual student. He related that he did believe that
10 Mr. Moussaoui was from France, that he spoke English with a French
11 accent. He explained that he had conducted two days of ground
12 school training with him and done one simulator session.
13 I decided that it would probably be the most efficient
14 to interview Mr. Prevost in person, and we agreed that we would
15 meet the next day for an interview.
16 Q. Okay. Before we do that, let me ask you a couple particular
17 questions, though, about your telephone contact with Mr. Prevost.
18 At any time did Mr. Prevost tell you anything about where it is
19 that he believed Mr. Moussaoui was staying?
20 A. He did. Mr. Prevost had information about Mr. Moussaoui's
21 hotel room.
22 Q. And where was that?
23 A. The Residence Inn in Eagan.
24 Q. Okay. And Eagan is where in relation to Minneapolis?
25 A. Eagan is a southern suburb of the Twin Cities.
823
1 Q. Did he give you any type of information about whether
2 Mr. Moussaoui was associated with any type of car?
3 A. He did. He was able to describe a sedan and give a partial
4 license plate and a color of the license.
5 Q. All right. Did he tell you the make of the car?
6 A. He did.
7 Q. What kind of car was that?
8 A. Subaru.
9 Q. All right. And did you learn from Mr. Prevost if
10 Mr. Moussaoui was traveling alone or with somebody else?
11 A. Mr. Prevost indicated that Mr. Moussaoui had a companion.
12 Q. And did he give you any further information about that
13 companion at the time?
14 A. He was able to describe him as a male, dark complected, with
15 dark hair.
16 Q. All right. And did you ask Mr. Prevost in terms of how long
17 Mr. Moussaoui was scheduled for training?
18 A. Mr. Prevost, because he had completed his ground school
19 portion, was uncertain as to his exact schedule. He was able to
20 refer me back to the school, but he said he had a number of
21 simulator sessions coming up in the next few days.
22 Q. Who did Mr. Prevost refer you to at the Pan Am Academy for
23 the schedule?
24 A. Alan McHale.
25 Q. Now, directing your attention to the next day, August the
824
1 16th of 2001, did your investigation continue with Agent Weess and
2 Agent Rapp going anywhere?
3 A. It did. Special Agents Weess and Rapp went to the Residence
4 Inn in Eagan and located the car that Mr. Prevost had described.
5 Q. And what kind of license plates were on that car?
6 A. Oklahoma.
7 Q. And was it reported to you, the license plate, from their
8 surveillance of the car?
9 A. It was.
10 Q. And did you then run the license plates to figure out who the
11 registered owner was of the vehicle?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And who was the registered owner of the vehicle?
14 A. It came back with two registered owners, Abdullah and Hussein
15 al-Attas.
16 Q. And before that time, before you had run the license plates,
17 had you heard the names Hussein al-Attas or Abdullah al-Attas?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. And did the information that you received from running the
20 license plate tell you where the car was registered?
21 A. It did, to a post office box in Norman, Oklahoma.
22 Q. And before the running of the plates, did you ever have any
23 information that pertained to Oklahoma before then?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Now, after that, around noon on that day, the 16th, did you
825
1 have an occasion to go to the Pan Am Academy yourself?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. Who did you speak with at the Pan Am Academy?
4 A. I spoke with Alan McHale.
5 Q. And at that time did he give you a schedule?
6 A. He did. He provided me a schedule for Mr. Moussaoui's
7 simulator training.
8 MR. NOVAK: If we can put Exhibit MN-617.3 on the
9 screen, which has already been introduced, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 BY MR. NOVAK:
12 Q. I am showing you that exhibit, Agent Samit. Do you recognize
13 that exhibit?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. What is that exhibit?
16 A. That was what was provided by Mr. McHale.
17 Q. All right. And is there anything of import on that schedule
18 for you in terms of the way your investigation proceeded?
19 A. I noted that there was a day off on Friday.
20 Q. Okay. What did that tell you?
21 A. Well, that was the Muslim Sabbath, and it was just a possible
22 indicator that the person who had scheduled that was a very
23 religious Muslim.
24 Q. Okay. Was there any other, anything else of import on that
25 schedule for you in terms of how you were to proceed with the
826
1 investigation?
2 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, if I may, in terms of forms
3 of these questions, I assume these questions are asked as to what
4 he assumed on the day that he saw this the first time. Because
5 the questions are a little broader than that. If we have that
6 time frame, I have no objection.
7 MR. NOVAK: I asked him when he got the schedule.
8 THE COURT: I assume that's what they meant. But just
9 so we're clear --
10 MR. NOVAK: I asked him when he got the schedule, Judge.
11 I thought that was pretty clear.
12 THE COURT: When he got the schedule.
13 BY MR. NOVAK:
14 Q. When you got the schedule there, Agent Samit, what else of
15 import was on there?
16 A. It also allowed me to predict fairly accurately when
17 Mr. Moussaoui would be traveling to and from his simulator
18 sessions.
19 Q. Was there any indication to you when that training would end?
20 A. Yes. His last day, his last simulator day was August 20th.
21 Q. Now, we can put that down. Thank you, Gerard.
22 Now, thereafter you spoke to Mr. McHale. By the way,
23 did you ask him how it was that Mr. Moussaoui paid for his
24 training?
25 A. I did.
827
1 Q. And what response did you get?
2 A. He told us that he paid in cash.
3 Q. Okay. And thereafter you met with Mr. McHale. Did you have
4 an occasion to interview Mr. Prevost in person?
5 A. I did. We responded to Mr. Prevost's hotel, as we had agreed
6 the day before, and we conducted an interview.
7 Q. Can you tell us what it is that Mr. Prevost told you at that
8 time?
9 A. Mr. Prevost was able to elaborate on his contact with
10 Mr. Moussaoui, to describe his interest in aviation but his utter
11 lack of experience and knowledge. He discussed the fact that they
12 talked about Mr. Moussaoui was a resident of the U.K., originally
13 from France.
14 When we asked Mr. Prevost what sparked his suspicion,
15 what triggered his suspicion, that's when he related a story about
16 Mr. Moussaoui's interest in the aircraft doors, the fact that he
17 was surprised to learn that they couldn't be opened in flight, and
18 then that led into the discussion about Mr. Moussaoui's religion.
19 Q. Okay. Now, at that point also was there any indication to
20 you from Mr. Prevost whether or not Mr. Moussaoui was going to
21 seek additional training beyond the simulator training that was
22 scheduled?
23 A. There was. Mr. Prevost indicated that based on what
24 Mr. Moussaoui had observed the previous night in the simulator,
25 that he felt that more training might be required.
828
1 Q. All right. And what if anything did that tell you in terms
2 of how long that you had to work with in terms of your
3 investigation, in terms of possible criminality here?
4 A. Mr. Prevost related that it might be, he might require a week
5 or two more of training. Dating that from August 20th when
6 Mr. Moussaoui's last scheduled simulator session was, we could
7 project ahead another 14 days or so to the end of the first week
8 of September.
9 Q. Okay. Now, after you interviewed Mr. Prevost, could you tell
10 us if you made any decisions about how to proceed with your
11 investigation?
12 A. We did. Special Agent Weess and I consulted and we decided
13 that on the basis of the suspicious behavior discussed, provided
14 to us by the school, that we were going to arrest Mr. Moussaoui.
15 Q. Okay. And why was that? You were going to arrest him for
16 what?
17 A. We were going to arrest him on his visa waiver overstay.
18 Q. But were you focused upon that or were you focused on other
19 concerns?
20 A. We were obviously focused on learning more about his plans.
21 And we saw that as a way of preventing him from getting any
22 simulator training, any meaningful aircraft training before we had
23 the opportunity to talk to him and sort things out.
24 Q. Did you ever consider the fact that he could have just been a
25 rich guy, taking training?
829
1 A. We did. However, upon discussing that with Mr. Prevost,
2 Special Agent Weess and I concluded he really didn't fit any of
3 the categories. He certainly didn't seem like just a rich guy.
4 He wasn't interested in logical things that just a vanity pilot
5 would be interested in.
6 Q. And did you make any arrangements in case that, when you did
7 have contact with him, that if you had determined that he was a
8 legitimate person?
9 A. We did. We, Special Agent Weess and I discussed in advance,
10 and our plan was that if he was just a legitimate person and we
11 could find no further reason for suspicion, we were going to
12 intercede with the school and attempt to get some of his money
13 refunded for him, because we didn't want to spoil the training; if
14 it was no harm, no foul, we didn't want to interfere with his life
15 and cost him money.
16 Q. Okay. Now, after you made that decision to arrest
17 Mr. Moussaoui, could you tell us where it is that you went to
18 accomplish that?
19 A. We went to his hotel.
20 Q. What hotel was that?
21 A. The Residence Inn in Eagan.
22 Q. And could you tell us approximately what time on August the
23 16th you arrived there?
24 A. Around 4 p.m.
25 Q. And who arrived there with you? Were you alone or with other
830
1 agents?
2 A. No, we had two teams of two agents each. It was myself,
3 Special Agent Steve Nordmann of Immigration and Naturalization,
4 and then Special Agents Weess and Rapp.
5 Q. And when you arrived there, did you make any efforts to
6 determine which room it was that Mr. Moussaoui was staying in?
7 A. We did. We located the vehicle previously and we knew where
8 it was parked, but we didn't know what room he was staying in. So
9 Special Agents Weess and Rapp interviewed the hotel clerk and
10 asked what room Mr. Moussaoui was staying in.
11 Q. Which room did you determine that was?
12 A. 1414.
13 Q. Now, if I could show the witness Exhibit Numbers MN-500.1
14 through MN-500.7.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right. Those are all in.
18 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-500.1 through MN-500.7
19 were received in evidence.)
20 BY MR. NOVAK:
21 Q. Maybe we can bring them up on the screen and we can take them
22 one at a time. It is 500.1.
23 Do you want to tell us, Agent Samit, what it is that
24 Exhibit MN-500.1 is that we're looking at right there?
25 A. That's the sign for the Residence Inn in Eagan.
831
1 Q. And, by the way, I gather back in August of 2001 there was no
2 snow? You guys don't get snow in August there, do you?
3 A. No, sir, we don't.
4 MR. MAC MAHON: We will stipulate to that, Your Honor.
5 (Laughter.)
6 BY MR. NOVAK:
7 Q. Can we go to the next photo, MN-500.2. What are we looking
8 at there, Agent Samit?
9 A. That's the lobby, the office where the front desk is at the
10 motel.
11 Q. 500.3, please, what are we looking at there, Agent Samit?
12 A. We're looking at the parking spot where Mr. al-Attas's
13 vehicle was located, right there (indicating), and we're looking
14 at the entrance to room 1414, right there (indicating).
15 Q. Okay. 500.4, please. What are we looking at there?
16 A. That's just another view of the entrance to room 1414.
17 Q. And 500.5?
18 A. That's another angle, the sidewalk outside room 1414.
19 Q. 500.6?
20 A. Closeup of the door.
21 Q. 500.7?
22 A. Another view of the door.
23 Q. Okay. We can take those down.
24 Now, directing your attention to about 5:10 p.m. that
25 day, August 16th of 2001, could you tell us, had you set up a
832
1 surveillance of where you depicted Mr. al-Attas's car being?
2 A. We did. We positioned both vehicles so that we could view
3 Mr. al-Attas's car and Special Agents Weess and Rapp could also
4 view room 1414.
5 Q. Okay. Could you tell us what happened at that time? Who was
6 the first person that came out?
7 A. Mr. al-Attas was the first person to leave the room.
8 Q. Which -- what was his first name?
9 A. Hussein al-Attas.
10 Q. And could you tell us when Mr. al-Attas came out of the room,
11 where did he go?
12 A. He proceeded directly to that 1991 Subaru and to the driver's
13 side.
14 Q. And did anybody else come out after him?
15 A. After a short delay, a second person came out that we
16 subsequently identified as Mr. Moussaoui.
17 Q. And when Mr. Moussaoui -- when you talk about a short delay,
18 how much longer are we talking about?
19 A. Probably 45 seconds.
20 Q. The person that you identified as Mr. Moussaoui, is he here
21 in the courtroom today?
22 A. He is.
23 Q. Could you identify him, please?
24 A. He is sitting right there (indicating).
25 MR. NOVAK: For the record the witness has identified
833
1 the defendant, please.
2 THE COURT: Any objection?
3 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: All right. The record will so reflect.
5 BY MR. NOVAK:
6 Q. Now, when Mr. al-Attas came out of the room, can you tell us
7 what it is that occurred?
8 A. Mr. al-Attas came out of the room, went to the driver's side
9 of the vehicle and got in, at which point we moved in and blocked
10 his vehicle and asked him to step out of the vehicle.
11 Q. All right. And this is before Mr. Moussaoui had come out of
12 the room?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And, by the way, what did you learn about Mr. al-Attas in
15 terms of his nationality and such at that time?
16 A. When we interviewed him subsequently we learned he was a
17 Yemeni citizen and a resident of Saudi Arabia.
18 Q. And he had traveled to the United States on what kind of
19 visa?
20 A. A student visa.
21 Q. And that's different than the visa waiver program; is that
22 right?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. What's a student visa allow you to do?
25 A. A student visa allows you to remain in the United States for
834
1 the duration of the time that you are studying at an accredited
2 university.
3 Q. Now, at that time when you stopped Mr. al-Attas, did you
4 arrest him then?
5 A. We did not.
6 Q. Okay. What did you do with him?
7 A. We asked Mr. al-Attas to step out of the vehicle, which he
8 did. We took him away from the vehicle and gave him a pat-down
9 search, quickly determined he did not have any weapons.
10 Q. Could you tell us what is a pat-down search?
11 A. A pat-down search is a law enforcement search that agents and
12 police officers under the law are allowed to conduct to ensure
13 that the person that they are dealing with cannot access any
14 dangerous items, weapons of any kind.
15 Q. So you are patting down, are you patting down simply for
16 weapons or looking for other evidence at the same time?
17 A. We're looking for weapons at that point.
18 Q. It is just limited to that?
19 A. Dangerous items, yes, sir.
20 Q. Now, after you did the pat-down on Mr. al-Attas, how much
21 longer was it until Mr. Moussaoui came out?
22 A. Probably within 15 seconds.
23 Q. And I would like to show the witness Exhibit GX-2, please,
24 which is previously admitted. I think it is on the screen there,
25 Agent Samit. That's fine. Do you recognize that photograph?
835
1 A. I do.
2 Q. What does that photograph depict?
3 A. That's Mr. Moussaoui's appearance on August 16th, 2001.
4 Q. So he looked a little different then than he does today; is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is the nature of the difference between then and now?
8 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, the jury can see the
9 difference between the two.
10 THE COURT: I think it is cumulative too. It has
11 already been asked of another witness.
12 MR. NOVAK: That's fine.
13 BY MR. NOVAK:
14 Q. Can you tell us, do you recall how Mr. Moussaoui was dressed
15 at that time?
16 A. He was dressed casually, contemporary American clothes, he
17 had cargo pants on, a T-shirt, leather jacket, and a ball cap.
18 Q. Could you tell us what happened? Did you approach
19 Mr. Moussaoui?
20 A. I did. My first thought was he looks just like an American.
21 But having seen him come out of room 1414, we reasoned it was him.
22 And Special Agent Nordmann and myself approached Mr. Moussaoui.
23 Q. Mr. Nordmann was the other INS agent; is that correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. When you and Agent Nordmann stopped or approached
836
1 Mr. Moussaoui, can you tell us what happened next?
2 A. We identified ourselves as federal agents and informed him
3 that he had an immigration issue and that we needed to discuss it
4 with him.
5 Q. And what if any response did you receive from Mr. Moussaoui?
6 A. Mr. Moussaoui immediately said he had some expensive flight
7 training he needed to get to and that he couldn't stop to talk.
8 Q. And so what happened?
9 A. We informed him that this was important and it was pressing
10 and that he needed to stay and talk to us.
11 Q. All right. What happened after that?
12 A. I asked Mr. Moussaoui for identification and also that he
13 allow me to look in his bag, again, a search pursuant to the
14 pat-down just to ensure there were no weapons or dangerous items.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Mr. Moussaoui presented me with a passport case and his bag.
17 Q. Okay. Could we show the witness, first of all, Exhibit
18 MN-600.2, please.
19 THE COURT: Any objection to that exhibit?
20 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: All right. It is in.
22 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-600.2 was received in
23 evidence.)
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. We also have it on the screen. Agent Samit, I am going to
837
1 ask you to hold up Exhibit MN-600.2. Can you tell us what it is?
2 A. Yes, sir. It is the passport case that Mr. Moussaoui handed
3 me.
4 Q. Now, was there anything inside the passport case?
5 A. There was. There was a French passport.
6 Q. I am going to ask you, do you have Exhibit MN-600.1, which we
7 would offer?
8 THE COURT: Any objection?
9 MR. MAC MAHON: No. I thought I already said no
10 objection.
11 THE COURT: 2 was the case.
12 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: 1 is the passport. It is in.
14 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-600.1 was received in
15 evidence.)
16 BY MR. NOVAK:
17 Q. What is that?
18 A. This is Mr. Moussaoui's French passport.
19 Q. Is that what he showed to you?
20 A. This was in the case, yes, sir, and I looked at it.
21 Q. Other than the passport, did he show you anything else?
22 A. Also in there was an I-94W form.
23 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit MN-635.
24 THE COURT: Any objection?
25 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
838
1 THE COURT: All right, it is in.
2 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-635 was received in
3 evidence.)
4 BY MR. NOVAK:
5 Q. Do you have that there? We will just bring it on the screen
6 there and if you can just tell us, what is that?
7 A. That's Mr. Moussaoui's I-94W form.
8 Q. Okay. Does that relate to that visa waiver program that you
9 were talking about?
10 A. It does.
11 Q. And stamped -- first of all, do you see his name on there?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And stamped on there, is there any indication when it was
14 that he entered the country?
15 A. February 23rd, 2001.
16 Q. And does it have the expiration date stamped on there, when
17 he has got to leave this country?
18 A. It does. The expiration date or the departure date is
19 actually larger than the entry, and it is May 2nd -- May 22, 2001.
20 Q. We can put that aside. In addition to those items. Did
21 Mr. Moussaoui show you a driver's license from any country?
22 A. There was a driver's license from the United Kingdom also in
23 that case.
24 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit MN-623, please.
25 THE COURT: Any objection?
839
1 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection.
2 THE COURT: It is in.
3 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-623 was received in
4 evidence.)
5 BY MR. NOVAK:
6 Q. We can bring it on the screen then, if that's okay. Do you
7 recognize that item, Agent Samit?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. What is that item?
10 A. That is a United Kingdom driver's license in Mr. Moussaoui's
11 name, and it bears his photo.
12 Q. Does it reveal also his age on there, as well, his date of
13 birth?
14 A. It does. His date of birth, his address.
15 Q. That date of birth being 5/30/68?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And then what is the address that's provided on that driver's
18 license?
19 A. 23A Lambert Road in London.
20 Q. If we can put that aside, please. Additionally did
21 Mr. Moussaoui present you any type of financial document?
22 A. Also in that passport case was a statement from Arvest Bank
23 in Norman, Oklahoma.
24 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit Number MN-639.4, which we
25 would offer.
840
1 THE COURT: Any objection?
2 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right. 639.4 is in.
4 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-639.4 was received in
5 evidence.)
6 BY MR. NOVAK:
7 Q. Perhaps if we can bring it on the screen then.
8 Can you tell us what it is we're looking at there, Agent
9 Samit?
10 A. That's a deposit agreement, upon the opening of a bank
11 account in Mr. Moussaoui's name from Arvest Bank, Norman,
12 Oklahoma.
13 Q. And can we zoom in there to the top there a little bit?
14 And does that, did that document indicate to you what
15 the initial opening deposit amount was?
16 A. It does, sir, right here, in the amount of $32,000.
17 Q. All right. And did it also identify an address for
18 Mr. Moussaoui?
19 A. It does.
20 Q. What is the address, please?
21 A. 1950 Goddard Avenue in Norman, Oklahoma.
22 Q. Thank you. We can put that down. By the way, those items,
23 the passport, the driver's license, the I-94 form and the bank
24 statement, where were they physically located when you received
25 those?
841
1 A. They were physically located within that passport case.
2 Q. Okay. Now, after Mr. Moussaoui showed you those items, what
3 is it -- what happened next?
4 A. We informed him that on the basis of his immigration problem,
5 we believed that he was in the United States illegally, that he
6 had stayed past his departure date.
7 Q. What was Mr. Moussaoui's response to that?
8 A. His response was that was not true, that was not correct, and
9 that, in fact, he had received, he had applied for and received an
10 extension that would have allowed him to stay in the United States
11 for longer.
12 Q. All right. Any further discussions about his need to attend
13 flight training?
14 A. He did. He mentioned it again, that he wanted to clear
15 things up very quickly because he had to get to flight training.
16 Q. All right. Did he tell you where these papers were that he
17 had that could clear this up?
18 A. He did. He said he had the documents in his hotel room.
19 Q. All right. So what did you do?
20 A. He invited us back to the hotel room to retrieve the
21 documents and Special Agent Nordmann and myself went with him.
22 Q. Is that room 1414?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Could you tell us who all went into 1414 other than
25 yourselves and Agent Nordmann?
842
1 A. No one else.
2 Q. Well, how about Mr. Moussaoui?
3 A. Oh, right. Mr. Moussaoui opened the door for us and then --
4 Q. Did he have a key?
5 A. He did.
6 Q. Can you tell us when you walked into the room what it is that
7 you observed?
8 A. It was a larger hotel room suite with two beds, a
9 kitchenette, and a seating area.
10 Q. All right. And could you tell us which side of the room it
11 was that Mr. Moussaoui headed to then?
12 A. He headed to the left side of the room.
13 Q. Could you tell us what happened when you went over to the
14 left -- did you do anything for your own safety's sake when you
15 went in there?
16 A. We did. As we moved through the room, we kept Mr. Moussaoui
17 in sight. We stayed close to him, and we also ensured that any
18 areas he touched where he went, he wasn't attempting to access a
19 weapon.
20 Q. Now, had he consented to your entry into the hotel room?
21 A. Yes, sir, he did.
22 Q. If he had not consented into the hotel room, would you have
23 been able to go in there?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And why is that?
843
1 A. Under the Fourth Amendment, we don't have the right to search
2 without a warrant or his consent.
3 Q. Okay. Now, in this instance, though, he did consent; is that
4 right?
5 A. He did, yes.
6 Q. Could you tell us what happened then? You get in the room
7 and you said he headed to the left side. What happened next?
8 A. In the little kitchen area, the little kitchenette, there
9 were piled a number of documents. Mr. Moussaoui began going
10 through the pile of documents and shortly retrieved one of those.
11 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit MN-636, please, which we
12 would offer into evidence.
13 THE COURT: Any objection?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: It is in.
16 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-636 was received in
17 evidence.)
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. Perhaps we can put it on the screen. Maybe that would be the
20 easiest thing. If we can zip in there a little closer, can you
21 tell us what it is there, Agent Samit?
22 A. Yes, sir. This is his request to adjust status form. It is
23 an acknowledgment that Immigration had received a request to
24 adjust status from Mr. Moussaoui.
25 Q. For his visa waiver program?
844
1 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
2 Q. Now, are you able to change that status?
3 A. No.
4 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, we concede he was out of
5 status, properly arrested for an immigration violation.
6 MR. NOVAK: That's not the point.
7 THE COURT: Well, I am going to overrule the objection
8 at this point. I assume this is going someplace.
9 MR. NOVAK: Right.
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Did Mr. Moussaoui indicate to you whether that document
12 allowed him to stay in the country?
13 A. He did. In fact, he was very insistent that that document
14 allowed him to remain in the United States.
15 Q. And was that correct?
16 A. No. It was not.
17 Q. All right. Now, as you went through these documents with
18 him, what else occurred then in the room?
19 A. Special Agent Nordmann reviewed the document, made the final
20 decision that Mr. Moussaoui was not in status, he informed him of
21 that, and we placed Mr. Moussaoui under arrest.
22 Q. Okay. Now, at the time that you arrested him, did you notice
23 if Mr. Moussaoui had any other bags or any other items that were
24 in the hotel room on the left side?
25 A. He did. The room was full of household goods, of clothing,
845
1 of bags, backpacks, suitcases, and I noticed a considerable
2 quantity of clothing and other materials like that on the left
3 side of the room.
4 Q. Okay. And at that time did you search those items?
5 A. No, we did not.
6 Q. Okay. Why not?
7 A. We asked Mr. Moussaoui for permission to search. He became
8 very upset at being informed he was being placed under arrest. He
9 again noted to us that he had expensive flight training, urgent
10 flight training he needed to attend. And I suggested to him that
11 maybe there was a reply to that, that he had received --
12 Q. Reply to what?
13 A. To his request to adjust status.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That there might be other documents which would show that he
16 was, in fact, in status.
17 Q. And what was his response to that?
18 A. His response was no, you may not search my things, you can't
19 go through anything else. He was very insistent that we not do
20 that.
21 Q. Why didn't you search them anyhow?
22 A. Because we're not allowed to do that under the law.
23 Mr. Moussaoui was in custody. He had been patted down. He was,
24 he was subsequently searched, his person was searched, but under
25 the Fourth Amendment we're not allowed to search his room.
846
1 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you patted Mr. Moussaoui down. And
2 what if anything did you find on his person?
3 A. In his left pocket I found a dagger.
4 Q. All right. If we can show the Exhibit MN-501, please.
5 THE COURT: Any objection?
6 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. NOVAK: I think we have a photograph, MN-501P, which
9 we can bring up while the agent is looking at the dagger.
10 THE COURT: All right. And do you want the photograph
11 made a part of the evidence in this case?
12 MR. NOVAK: Please.
13 THE COURT: 501P is the photograph. Any objection?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-501 and MN-501P were
17 received in evidence.)
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. Can you hold up Exhibit MN-501 and tell the jury what it is
20 you have?
21 A. This is the weapon I retrieved from the left front pocket of
22 Mr. Moussaoui.
23 Q. Could you open that up? Now, could you tell us, that's
24 obviously got a blade on it; is that right?
25 A. It does, yes, sir.
847
1 MR. NOVAK: Judge, I think Mr. Wood has a ruler. Can we
2 measure what the length of that blade is, please?
3 THE COURT: Do you want that shown to the jury more
4 closely? I'm not sure I want to -- how sharp is that blade?
5 THE WITNESS: It's pretty sharp, Your Honor.
6 MR. NOVAK: May Agent Samit step down?
7 THE COURT: No, I will have Mr. Wood do that. You can
8 open it when you get to the jury. I don't think I want you all
9 handling that, unless you have to.
10 Thank you, Mr. Wood.
11 MR. NOVAK: May I ask the agent to measure the length of
12 the blade then, Your Honor?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: The blade is two inches long.
15 BY MR. NOVAK:
16 Q. Now, could you tell us, Agent Samit, is there any use for
17 pilots to have a dagger on their person?
18 A. No.
19 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I'd object to that.
20 Moussaoui's not a pilot anyway, and it's arguing with the
21 witness --
22 THE COURT: That objection, without a long speech, I
23 will sustain I think at this point. Let's move this along.
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. Now, in addition to that dagger, did you seize anything else
848
1 off of Mr. Moussaoui's person?
2 A. We did.
3 Q. What was that?
4 A. He was wearing a money belt.
5 Q. Okay. And did it have any money in it?
6 A. It did. It contained a little over $3,000 in cash.
7 Q. Okay. Did you seize that?
8 A. We did.
9 Q. After you seized the dagger and the $3,000 in cash, could you
10 tell us how did Mr. Moussaoui react?
11 A. That's when he became upset and that's when we had the
12 discussion about -- the inquiry about perhaps the document was
13 elsewhere in the room.
14 Q. Okay. And that's when he denied you your ability to search;
15 is that right?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Now, where was this pat-down with Mr. Moussaoui occurring at?
18 A. It occurred in the kitchen, kitchenette area.
19 Q. And then after you found those items, what did you do with
20 Mr. Moussaoui?
21 A. We took him outside.
22 Q. Okay. Where did you take him to?
23 A. We placed him in Special Agent Nordmann's INS vehicle.
24 Q. Okay. Now, where was Mr. al-Attas while this was going on?
25 A. Mr. al-Attas was outside with Special Agent Weess and Rapp.
849
1 Q. Okay. And when you exited the room with Mr. Moussaoui to put
2 him into the vehicle, did you have an occasion to see if Agent
3 Rapp was conducting a search of the Subaru?
4 A. In fact, he was. They were finishing up a search, consent
5 search of Mr. al-Attas's vehicle.
6 Q. And what if anything did you observe then?
7 A. Just as we brought Mr. Moussaoui out of the room, Special
8 Agent Rapp held up a knife that he had located on the passenger
9 side of that vehicle.
10 Q. Could we show the witness Exhibit MN-502, which we would
11 offer, as well as a photo that we have of the same item, MN-502P.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-502 and MN-502P were
16 received in evidence.)
17 BY MR. NOVAK:
18 Q. Agent Samit, I am asking you to look at 502 and then the
19 photograph, 502P. Can you tell us what that item is?
20 A. It is a Sheffield lock-blade knife.
21 Q. And where do you recognize that item from?
22 A. This is the knife that Special Agent Rapp held up.
23 Q. Where was it that -- you observed him seize that; is that
24 correct?
25 A. I did. Special Agent Rapp reached in, pulled this up off the
850
1 floor of the vehicle, turned to Mr. al-Attas and asked him if this
2 was his. Mr. Moussaoui, who was with us, said "no, it is mine."
3 Q. And what side of the vehicle was it that that came from?
4 A. The passenger's side.
5 MR. NOVAK: Okay. Could we ask Mr. Wood to be kind
6 enough to do the same thing, Your Honor, and show it to the jury?
7 THE COURT: Yeah. Am I correct this is a retractable,
8 or a blade that --
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, it is a folding blade
10 knife.
11 THE COURT: Whereas the other did not fold?
12 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
13 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Wood.
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. Agent Samit, I am also going to ask you to measure what the
16 length of that blade is for us, please.
17 A. The blade on this knife is three inches long.
18 Q. Thank you, Agent Samit. You can put the ruler down. You can
19 put the knife aside as well.
20 Now, could you tell us, after that item was seized,
21 could you tell us what it is that you all did with Mr. Moussaoui?
22 A. We placed him in the back of Special Agent Nordmann's car and
23 we seat-belted him in.
24 Q. What occurred at that time?
25 A. He became very upset, visibly upset, again mentioning the
851
1 need to get to flight training.
2 Q. Okay. And what did you do then?
3 A. I attempted to talk to him at that point, just to kind of
4 reassure him, calm him down, tell him that we could talk about
5 this. I informed him at that time that I was a pilot and tried to
6 engage him in a discussion of aviation.
7 Q. At any point was there any interaction at that point between
8 Mr. Moussaoui and Mr. al-Attas?
9 A. Mr. Moussaoui tried to say something to Mr. al-Attas, but we
10 asked him not to.
11 Q. Okay. And so nothing occurred then?
12 A. So nothing, there was no communication.
13 Q. What did you do with Mr. Moussaoui then?
14 A. Special Agents Nordmann and Rapp transported Mr. Moussaoui to
15 Immigration, to their office.
16 Q. Where is Immigration located?
17 A. In Bloomington, Minnesota, another suburb, southern suburb.
18 Q. Of Minneapolis?
19 A. Of the Twin Cities, yes, sir.
20 Q. And what did you and Agent Weess do?
21 A. Special Agent Weess and I accompanied Mr. al-Attas back into
22 the room because Mr. al-Attas was going to produce some documents
23 for Agent Weess that would prove that he was in status, he was
24 legally in the United States.
25 Q. And during this time is Mr. al-Attas in custody, is he
852
1 handcuffed or anything like that?
2 A. He is not.
3 Q. Can you tell us what occurred then?
4 A. We went back into the room, Mr. al-Attas opened the door, we
5 went into the room with him and Special Agent Weess. And I again,
6 taking precautions, stayed close by Mr. al-Attas. We conducted a
7 quick review of anything that Mr. al-Attas -- a quick search of
8 anything Mr. al-Attas wanted to access for weapons and dangerous
9 items, until Mr. al-Attas was able to retrieve documents which
10 proved to Special Agent Weess that he was legally in the United
11 States.
12 Q. And what side of the room was it that Mr. al-Attas directed
13 you to in that regard?
14 A. To the right side.
15 Q. Did he make any comment about whose items were on the left
16 side?
17 A. He did. He indicated Mr. Moussaoui's items were on the left.
18 Q. So you all moved to the right side of the room then?
19 A. We did.
20 Q. Did you do anything with Mr. Moussaoui's stuff on the left
21 side?
22 A. We did not.
23 Q. Could you tell us what you did on the right side then with
24 Mr. al-Attas?
25 A. Once he accessed the document that proved he was, in fact,
853
1 legally in the United States, to Special Agent Weess's
2 satisfaction, we asked Mr. al-Attas if he would consent to a
3 search of his belongings.
4 Q. Before we get to that search, what exactly was it that Mr.
5 al-Attas showed you all that indicated that he was lawfully in the
6 United States?
7 A. He showed us a transcript in his name that had indicated he
8 was in classes through that year, and he informed us that he was
9 planning on registering for classes for the coming semester as
10 well.
11 Q. And did you all find that to be acceptable then or not?
12 A. Special Agent Weess did, yes.
13 Q. Would you later on find out that that was not an accurate
14 transcript?
15 A. We would. We would later learn he was lying and falsified
16 the transcript.
17 Q. Now, after he showed you a transcript and you decided -- at
18 that point, though, you decided he was lawfully here; is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. So you didn't arrest him; is that right?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. So can you tell us what occurred then with Mr. al-Attas?
24 A. Mr. al-Attas consented to be interviewed by myself. And he
25 and I sat down and conducted an interview while Special Agent
854
1 Weess executed the consent search of his belongings.
2 Q. Consent search of what?
3 A. Of Mr. al-Attas's belongings.
4 Q. Did you ask Mr. al-Attas to consent search for
5 Mr. Moussaoui's items that were there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why is that?
8 A. Because he indicated that they were Mr. Moussaoui's items.
9 Mr. Moussaoui had indicated they were Mr. Moussaoui's items. And
10 he had denied us permission to search his items.
11 Q. So Mr. al-Attas didn't have the lawful ability to do it?
12 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
13 Q. And so could you tell us, did -- you began interviewing
14 Mr. Moussaoui, is that right?
15 A. Mr. al-Attas.
16 Q. Or Mr. al-Attas, excuse me, Mr. al-Attas?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Can you tell us what it is Mr. al-Attas told you at that
19 time?
20 A. Mr. al-Attas described his own background and described his
21 reasons for being in the United States.
22 Q. Which were what? Tell us what those were.
23 A. He was a Yemeni citizen, born in Saudi Arabia to Yemeni
24 parents, he had older brothers who were engineers. He indicated
25 that he had come to the United States for the purpose of getting
855
1 his Bachelor's degree, attending university, and that he was
2 currently doing that at the University of Oklahoma.
3 Q. Did he tell you, did he provide for you an address where he
4 was residing at that time?
5 A. He did.
6 Q. And what address was that?
7 A. 209A Wadsack in Norman, Oklahoma.
8 Q. And that address of 209A Wadsack Drive in Norman, was that
9 the first time you had heard of that address?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Did he also give you a telephone number for that address?
12 A. He did.
13 Q. Off the top of your head, do you remember it?
14 A. I don't. It was a 405 area code.
15 Q. All right. Did he tell you what his goal was at -- down at
16 the University of Oklahoma?
17 A. He said that he eventually wanted to obtain at least his
18 Bachelor's degree in mathematics.
19 Q. All right. Did he indicate to you, did he describe himself
20 as an American or what?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Or any thoughts about that?
23 A. No, he didn't. In contrast, in my experience to a lot of
24 students, his future plans did not include remaining in the United
25 States. In fact, he said that he wanted to finish his degree and
856
1 that he did not consider himself an American, and he did not mix
2 in American culture at all.
3 Q. All right. Did he tell you where it is that he had first
4 met, or when it was that he had first met Mr. Moussaoui?
5 A. He said he met him a few months previous.
6 Q. Did he tell you where he had met him at?
7 A. He did, at the Anoor Mosque in Norman, Oklahoma.
8 Q. Did he tell you if their relationship had changed in any way,
9 approximately one month before you arrested Mr. Moussaoui?
10 A. He did, that a month prior they had become roommates.
11 Q. And do you want to explain to the jurors how it is -- what it
12 is Mr. al-Attas told you about that?
13 A. Mr. al-Attas stated that his previous roommate had gotten
14 married and asked him to move out because of that. So he
15 approached a friend, Mukram Ali, another student at the University
16 of Oklahoma. When he approached Mr. Ali with a request that he be
17 allowed to live with him, Mr. Ali told him that Mr. Moussaoui had
18 similarly made the same request and that it was okay, but all
19 three of them would be roommates.
20 Q. Did he describe for you Mr. Moussaoui's religious practices?
21 A. He did.
22 Q. Could you tell us what those were?
23 A. He characterized him as a religious Muslim.
24 Q. Did he talk to you about any pronouncements that
25 Mr. Moussaoui had made about Israel or Palestine or anything about
857
1 that?
2 A. He did. He informed us Mr. Moussaoui did not like the
3 Israelis, he was very unhappy that -- what the Israelis were doing
4 and still receiving favorable press in the United States for it.
5 Q. Did Mr. al-Attas repeat to you any discussions that, or any
6 statements that Mr. Moussaoui had said to him about the
7 mistreatments of Muslims around the world?
8 A. He did. In fact, Mr. al-Attas informed us that
9 Mr. Moussaoui, one of the things that was a constant theme in his
10 discussion with Mr. al-Attas and with others, was that it is the
11 duty of Muslims to understand the suffering of other Muslims all
12 over the world.
13 Q. All right. And were there any discussions that Mr. al-Attas
14 repeated to you about Mr. Moussaoui's views of -- about whether it
15 is okay to harm civilians?
16 A. Yes. He said that in defense of Muslims, it is okay to harm
17 civilians.
18 Q. Did you ask Mr. al-Attas any further questions about whether
19 anybody could be harmed, according to Mr. Moussaoui's statements?
20 A. We did.
21 Q. Do you want to explain to us what it is that Mr. al-Attas
22 told you?
23 A. He told us that in order -- that it would be perfectly
24 acceptable to harm civilians in a Jihad. He said that if
25 Mr. Moussaoui believed that someone was an unbeliever, a
858
1 non-Muslim, was harming Muslims, that he would work against them.
2 He discussed Mr. Moussaoui's statements that it was the
3 duty of Muslims to train to fight and, in fact, he even quoted a
4 prophet. He gave us the name of a prophet, Omar Ibn Khattab, the
5 companion prophet, who was a person who said that you should train
6 your children to swim, to ride, to fight the unbelievers.
7 Q. All right. Back in August of 2001, did you know what a
8 fatwah was?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. Do you want to tell us what you believed a fatwah to be?
11 A. A fatwah is a religious pronouncement from a Muslim scholar,
12 a cleric.
13 Q. And did you have any discussions with Mr. al-Attas about
14 fatwahs?
15 A. We did. We asked if there were any fatwahs that
16 Mr. Moussaoui subscribed to or had ever discussed. And he said
17 that he couldn't name any specifically but that he knew that
18 Mr. Moussaoui did read fatwahs, that he accessed them on-line, in
19 fact.
20 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. al-Attas about
21 Mr. Moussaoui's previous flight training?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. Could you tell the folks what that was?
24 A. Mr. al-Attas told us that he was taking flight training in
25 Norman, Oklahoma, that he had been doing that for quite some time,
859
1 and that he had come to Minnesota to gain additional flight
2 training.
3 Q. Did he tell you when it is that they had arrived in
4 Minnesota?
5 A. He did.
6 Q. When was that?
7 A. That previous weekend.
8 Q. And which would have been what day?
9 A. The 11th and 12th.
10 Q. Okay. And did he tell you when it is that he, Mr. al-Attas,
11 planned to go home?
12 A. He said that Mr. Moussaoui had mentioned to him that there
13 would possibly be a requirement for additional flight training and
14 that they would need to stay later.
15 Q. All right. And did you have any discussions about who was
16 paying for this trip from Oklahoma up to Minnesota?
17 A. We asked Mr. al-Attas that. He said that originally they had
18 agreed to split the costs, but that after the trip began,
19 Mr. Moussaoui decided that he would pay for the lodging and the
20 fuel and that Mr. al-Attas would only have to pay for his own
21 food, his meals.
22 Q. Now, did you question Mr. al-Attas about the source of
23 Mr. Moussaoui's money or how much money he had?
24 A. We did.
25 Q. What was that?
860
1 A. Mr. al-Attas told us that he had seen Mr. Moussaoui in
2 possession of over $10,000, and that he was aware he had received
3 it from overseas but that he had no additional details.
4 Q. Did you try to get more details about that money?
5 A. We did. We asked Mr. al-Attas if he had received it, you
6 know, what mechanism by which he had received it, and Mr. al-Attas
7 did not know.
8 Q. All right. Did he tell you whether or not Mr. Moussaoui
9 discussed such things or not?
10 A. He did. Whenever we asked Mr. al-Attas questions, he was
11 unable to answer, he cited Mr. Moussaoui's extreme secretiveness
12 and, in fact, he told us that when we identified Mr. Moussaoui to
13 him by that name, that that was the first he had ever heard of it.
14 He didn't even know, claimed not to even know Mr. Moussaoui's
15 name.
16 Q. What name did Mr. al-Attas tell you that he knew
17 Mr. Moussaoui by?
18 A. He stated that he referred to him as Shaqil.
19 Q. Okay. Did he indicate to you how much longer he expected
20 Mr. Moussaoui to be in Minneapolis to get that flight training?
21 A. He said that Mr. Moussaoui had told him that they were
22 probably going to have to stay another one to two weeks, but that
23 they were going to move to a cheaper hotel because of the
24 additional stay.
25 Q. Did Mr. al-Attas tell you what their plans were after being
861
1 in the Twin Cities up there?
2 A. Mr. al-Attas said that they were looking to travel around the
3 United States.
4 Q. Did he give you particular locations that he said they
5 intended to go to?
6 A. He did, New York and Denver.
7 Q. Okay. Did he tell you why they were going to go to New York
8 and to Denver?
9 A. New York to see the sights and Denver because Mr. Moussaoui
10 told him that there was some additional business with United
11 Airlines that he needed to take care of.
12 Q. Now, while you were having this conversation with Mr.
13 al-Attas, did either you or Agent Weess come across a will?
14 A. I came across a will.
15 Q. Okay. And where did you find that will?
16 A. That was sitting on the table between Mr. al-Attas and
17 myself.
18 Q. And whose will was that?
19 A. Mr. al-Attas informed me that it was his.
20 Q. And could you describe for us what the will looked like and
21 what it --
22 A. It was in a brown mailing envelope, very new envelope, it
23 hadn't been worn. Inside the envelope were two sheets -- was a
24 sheet of notebook paper. Upon pulling the paper out of the
25 envelope, I asked Mr. al-Attas, is this yours? He answered that
862
1 it was. Upon pulling the sheet out, I could see that there was
2 writing in Arabic on the sheet.
3 Q. All right. The prompting of that -- did that will prompt you
4 to have any further questions then with Mr. al-Attas?
5 A. It did. He informed me that it was his last will and
6 testament. I asked him why he had such a document. He told me it
7 was common for Muslims to make that up before going on a journey,
8 to carry a document like that.
9 I asked him then if he was planning on going on Jihad.
10 Q. Do you want to explain to us what the word "Jihad" means?
11 A. Jihad is a word that means holy war. It is frequently what
12 terrorists and Muslim extremists will use to justify, to tell
13 people that they are going to embark on some campaign, some
14 fighting of some kind.
15 Q. When you asked that question of Mr. al-Attas, what did he
16 respond to you about Jihad?
17 A. He paused. He said "Jihad," he repeated that. And I: Said
18 yes, it means holy war. He laughed and said: I know what it
19 means. And he said: Yes, yes, I would consider going on Jihad
20 some day, but right now, right now I have to finish school.
21 Q. Okay. Now, as a result of the information that you received
22 from Mr. al-Attas and the previous information that you had
23 received from the flight school, Mr. Prevost and such, do you have
24 any view of what Mr. Moussaoui's religious views were then?
25 A. Yes, sir.
863
1 Q. And what was that?
2 A. That he was at least an Islamic extremist who had espoused or
3 discussed violence.
4 Q. And now -- by the way, excuse me, when you were going through
5 Mr. al-Attas's items or Agent Weess was, did you all find a
6 Pakistan visa?
7 A. We found an application for a Pakistan visa.
8 Q. Okay. Do you want to tell us about that?
9 A. We, Special Agent Weess located an application for a visa to
10 enter Pakistan among Mr. al-Attas's effects, he stated that that
11 was his and that he was planning on going to Pakistan in the near
12 future.
13 Q. "He" being Mr. al-Attas?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Did he make any mention about whether the person that he knew
16 as Shaqil had helped him with that application?
17 A. He did. He told us that Shaqil, because he was experienced
18 and had traveled around the world, was assisting him in completing
19 that visa application.
20 Q. Now, while you were in the room with Mr. al-Attas, did you
21 receive a phone call from somebody about what to do with
22 Mr. Moussaoui's bags, the seven, eight bags that were on the left
23 side of the room?
24 A. Yes, sir, we did.
25 Q. What happened?
864
1 A. Upon learning, Mr. Moussaoui's learning that he was not going
2 to be returning to the hotel in the next few days, that he was
3 going to be under arrest, he directed that his items, that he gave
4 permission for his items to be removed back to the Immigration
5 office.
6 Q. Be removed, does that mean be searched or just to be
7 transported?
8 A. No, it just means to be transported.
9 Q. Okay. Now -- and did you do that?
10 A. We did, with Mr. al-Attas's help, we carried all of the items
11 which he identified as Mr. Moussaoui's out to the vehicle.
12 Q. All right. And were they ultimately then transported to the
13 INS building?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And were they stored there?
16 A. They were.
17 Q. All right. Now, when you were with Mr. al-Attas, as you
18 testified already, he had indicated to you that he lived with
19 Mukram Ali and Mr. Moussaoui would stay there as well. Is that
20 right?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And did you at any time ask Mr. al-Attas to consent to a
23 search of the address in Oklahoma, 209 Wadsack Road?
24 A. No, sir, we didn't.
25 Q. And can you tell us why it is that you did not do that?
865
1 A. Because it wasn't his apartment.
2 Q. "His" being whose?
3 A. It was not Mr. al-Attas's apartment.
4 Q. Whose apartment was it?
5 A. It was Mukram Ali's.
6 Q. Was there any other reason why you decided not to do that?
7 A. We didn't want to approach either Mr. al-Attas about it
8 because he had no standing, or Mr. Ali, for fear that if there
9 were items there, if there was evidence there, we didn't want it
10 to be destroyed.
11 Q. Now, when you got all the -- after you got all the bags of
12 Mr. Moussaoui to transport back to INS, what did you do with Mr.
13 al-Attas?
14 A. We left Mr. al-Attas in the hotel room.
15 Q. He was free to go; is that right?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Did you make any requests for him to report at a later date?
18 A. We did. We requested that he report at 9 a.m. the next day,
19 and he agreed to do that.
20 Q. Okay. And where was he to report to?
21 A. To the Immigration and Naturalization Service office.
22 Q. All right. So did you leave the hotel then at that point?
23 A. We did.
24 Q. And where did you go to?
25 A. We returned to the Immigration office.
866
1 Q. And who was at the Immigration office? This is the one in
2 Bloomington; is that right?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Who was at that office when you got there?
5 A. Mr. Moussaoui was in custody there and had finished being
6 booked in. Special Agents Weess and Rapp were there and they had
7 supplied Mr. Moussaoui with dinner.
8 Q. Okay. What time was this? You are talking about dinner.
9 What time of the night now was it that you had come across
10 Mr. Moussaoui back at the INS office?
11 A. Probably a little after 7 p.m.
12 Q. Okay. And directing your attention to about 9:30 then, did
13 you have an occasion then to commence an interview with him?
14 A. We did. We conducted a further review of the items. We kind
15 of compared notes. We spoke with Special Agents Nordmann and Rapp
16 and around 9:30 we commenced an interview with Mr. Moussaoui.
17 Q. And before you started interviewing him, did you have an
18 occasion to give him what is commonly known as his Miranda rights?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And were those rights in writing on a form or were they just
21 oral?
22 A. They were -- no, they were both oral and in writing on a
23 form, which both Special Agent Weess and myself signed after
24 Mr. Moussaoui.
25 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit GX-2.1, please.
867
1 THE COURT: Any objection?
2 MR. MAC MAHON: The waiver form, Your Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yeah.
4 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. NOVAK: I offer it into evidence.
7 THE COURT: 2.1 is in.
8 (Government's Exhibit No. GX-2.1 was received in
9 evidence.)
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Could you tell us what it is we're looking at there, the
12 Exhibit GX-2.1, please?
13 A. This is the Immigration and Naturalization Service advice of
14 rights form.
15 Q. Okay. Is that signed by Mr. Moussaoui?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. And you have the date and the time as well; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And it indicates to you that he was willing to make a
20 statement freely and voluntarily to you; is that right?
21 A. It indicates, yes, sir, it indicates to me that he had
22 received all those Miranda warnings above, that we read them to
23 him, he read them and then signed.
24 Q. Let me ask you this: Before you all gave the Miranda rights
25 on that form, do you know if he was given any administrative INS
868
1 warnings before then?
2 A. He was. As part of the booking process, Special Agent
3 Nordman supplied him with administrative advice of rights.
4 Q. Is there any difference between the INS rights and the
5 Miranda rights?
6 A. Under administrative proceedings for Immigration, although he
7 has a right to an attorney, Immigration doesn't pay for an
8 attorney in that case.
9 Q. All right. And in addition to the INS rights and the Miranda
10 warning rights -- which we can take down, by the way, thank you --
11 was there any discussion about his consular notification rights?
12 A. There was.
13 Q. Can you explain to the jurors what exactly, what are consular
14 notification rights?
15 A. The consular section is obviously a country's representative
16 in foreign countries as part of an embassy. When the FBI or
17 immigration arrests citizens of foreign countries, one of our
18 protocols is to give them the opportunity that their consular
19 section be notified, that the FBI or that Immigration has arrested
20 a citizen of your country, here is his name and his information.
21 Q. And is there a benefit to somebody who is arrested to
22 exercise those rights?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 Q. What is the benefit to them?
25 A. It allows them to receive any assistance that their country
869
1 is willing to give.
2 Q. And is there any downside for somebody to exercise those
3 rights?
4 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, it is consular rights. His
5 opinion as to whether somebody might find them upsides or
6 downsides is not relevant. He didn't take them.
7 THE COURT: Well, I don't think that's a proper
8 objection. And I'm going to overrule it. Go ahead.
9 BY MR. NOVAK:
10 Q. Is there a downside of somebody exercising their consular
11 rights?
12 A. I can't think of a downside for a person who is not, who is
13 not known of by their, the host government as a criminal or
14 terrorist.
15 MR. MAC MAHON: I move to strike that answer, Your
16 Honor. He asked a broad question, whether it is an upside or
17 downside, and we get a conclusion instead of a yes or no.
18 THE COURT: I think this is an explanation for the
19 answer. I am going to overrule the objection. Go ahead.
20 BY MR. NOVAK:
21 Q. And if somebody -- well, strike that. I will just move on.
22 Now, after he was given all those various rights, did
23 Mr. Moussaoui -- did you begin interviewing Mr. Moussaoui?
24 A. We did. After Mr. Moussaoui refused his consular
25 notification, we began the interview.
870
1 Q. Okay. And who is the "we" that was interviewing him?
2 A. Special Agent Weess and myself, the same two signatories to
3 the advice of rights form.
4 Q. Before you started interviewing him, did you have any
5 discussions with him about the need to tell the truth?
6 A. We did. It was explained to Mr. Moussaoui that we were
7 federal agents, that we were discussing not just his immigration
8 status at this point but his reasons for being in the United
9 States and for asking for flight training, and we advised him of
10 the need to be able to tell the -- the need to tell the truth.
11 Q. And was Mr. Moussaoui cooperative at that time?
12 A. He was.
13 Q. Did you have further discussions about his need to get back
14 to his training?
15 A. He did. In fact, we cited that as key to helping us be able
16 to understand his reasons for being in the United States and
17 wanting flight training. He, again, repeated that he was very
18 eager to clear things up because of his flight training.
19 Q. Now, you interviewed him from 9:23 p.m. to approximately what
20 time?
21 A. A little bit after 11 p.m.
22 Q. And could you tell us, first of all, how it is that the
23 interview started and what if anything Mr. Moussaoui told you
24 about his view of immigration people?
25 A. Mr. Moussaoui explained some previous difficulty he had with
871
1 immigration in the U.K. and indicated to us for this reason he did
2 not trust immigration authorities.
3 Q. Now, could you tell us how it is that the interview then
4 began?
5 A. It began with our requesting that he lay out his background.
6 Q. Okay. And what did he tell you?
7 A. He told us that he was a French citizen, born in France, that
8 he had been educated in the United Kingdom and that he had lived
9 there for the last several years.
10 Q. Did he tell you when it was he had come to the United States?
11 A. He did. He confirmed for us that it was in February of 2001.
12 Q. Did he tell you why he had come to the United States?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What did he say?
15 A. He stated that he had come to the United States to take
16 flight training to become a pilot.
17 Q. Did he tell you where he initially took that flight training?
18 A. He did.
19 Q. Where was that?
20 A. Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma.
21 Q. Did he tell you the number of hours -- what type of training
22 that he had taken down in Norman, Oklahoma?
23 A. Yes, sir, he did.
24 Q. What kind of training was that?
25 A. He had taken training pursuant to obtaining his private
872
1 pilot's license.
2 Q. Okay. On what type of plane?
3 A. Cessna 150.
4 Q. The kind of planes you used to fly?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Did he report to you approximately how many hours he had had
7 down there?
8 A. He did.
9 Q. How many hours?
10 A. A little bit more than 50, 55, 56.
11 Q. Did he tell you if he had achieved getting his PPL license?
12 A. He told us he had not.
13 Q. Okay. Did he tell you if he had taken any tests at all,
14 though?
15 A. He told us that he took the written test but had failed it
16 and not gone back to take the practical test.
17 Q. Did he tell you why he had not gone back to take the
18 practical test?
19 A. He did not. He just said he wasn't progressing and he didn't
20 feel ready. But I also knew, in my experience, that you couldn't
21 take the practical test until you had passed the written test.
22 Q. Okay. Now, did he tell you why it was that he had gone to
23 Airman to take the flight training?
24 A. He said that Airman specialized in training foreign students
25 and that he had chosen not to do it elsewhere, as in back home in
873
1 the U.K., because of the cost associated with that.
2 Q. Did he explain to you why it was that he had not completed
3 his training at Airman?
4 A. He did. He said that the instructors who were assigned to
5 fly with him were too young, too inexperienced, and that they
6 hadn't been able to teach him.
7 Q. Okay. Did he tell you why it was that he had contacted Pan
8 Am and paid that $8,300 to take this simulator training?
9 A. He said he just wanted to enjoy the 747-400 series, that he
10 thought since he had been struggling with little airplanes, the
11 general aviation airplanes, that he might enjoy and have benefit
12 from flying larger airplanes.
13 Q. All right. For his personal enjoyment, basically?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Did he tell you he was a terrorist at that time?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Did he tell you he was taking the training for terroristic
18 purposes?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Could we bring on the screen Exhibit GX-1, which is a
21 Statement of Facts, paragraph 9.
22 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I think with this witness
23 we're going to get the lies out, if he wants to. I think he just
24 needs to ask him what Mr. Moussaoui said, not --
25 THE COURT: That objection I am going to sustain.
874
1 MR. NOVAK: But, Judge, the follow-up question, though,
2 is what is the impact of him not telling that to the interviewer.
3 THE COURT: Let's confine the questioning to this
4 witness, as to what this witness did with the defendant.
5 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor.
6 BY MR. NOVAK:
7 Q. Now, at that point did Mr. Moussaoui also explain to you what
8 his address -- where he resided before he came to the United
9 States?
10 A. He did. He confirmed the address on his U.K. driver's
11 license, 23A Lambert Road in London as being his residence in the
12 U.K.
13 Q. Did he tell you at any point whether he had resided at a
14 guesthouse in Kandahar?
15 MR. MAC MAHON: Same objection, Your Honor. The
16 question is what did this man tell this person when he was
17 interviewed, not what he withheld from him. The lies are the
18 question he was asked and answered, not evidence that has been
19 withheld. If he asked him did you go stay at a guesthouse in
20 Kandahar, then it would be a fair question. Otherwise, it is not.
21 THE COURT: I am going to continue to sustain that line
22 of objection.
23 MR. NOVAK: All right, Your Honor.
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. Did you ask the defendant about his income?
875
1 A. Yes, sir, I did.
2 Q. Could you tell us what it is that the defendant told you
3 about where he had gotten his money?
4 A. He told us that he had worked here and there at various jobs
5 in the United Kingdom, that he had even before residing in the
6 United Kingdom, he had worked since the age of 14 and that he also
7 received some funding from family and associates.
8 Q. All right. At any point did he discuss with you working in
9 the world of marketing?
10 A. He did.
11 Q. Could you tell us what it is that he told you about that?
12 A. He told us that he was employed at a company called NOP in
13 the United Kingdom. He couldn't remember what NOP stood for, but
14 he remembered N was "national." He said he had worked for them in
15 marketing.
16 Q. Did you press him on any type of details about the NOP?
17 A. We did. We asked what his income had been, what his salary
18 had been, what his job description was.
19 Q. And could you tell us why it is that you were -- first of
20 all, did you get a response to that?
21 A. We did not.
22 Q. And what did he tell you?
23 A. He said he couldn't remember, that he hadn't paid taxes in
24 the year 2000, and that he couldn't remember the answer to those
25 questions.
876
1 Q. Could you tell us why it is that you pressed him on those
2 types of details?
3 A. Because as a terrorism investigator, we're always very
4 interested in money. It is a key element of any plan.
5 Q. All right. During the interview, were there any discussions
6 with Mr. Moussaoui about an Indonesian company?
7 A. He told us, in fact, that he had been employed with an
8 Indonesian company attempting to do telephone cards.
9 Q. Okay. And did he tell you what happened with that?
10 A. He just said that the business did not work out.
11 Q. All right. Now, did you ask him at any time how much money
12 he was making on a yearly basis or within the last year or two?
13 A. We did.
14 Q. And could you tell us what it is that he told you about that?
15 A. Well, that's when he said he hadn't paid taxes in the year
16 2000 and that, in fact, he couldn't give us an estimate of how
17 much money he made.
18 Q. And did you ask him at any point about this family business
19 or anything that he was associated with?
20 A. We did.
21 Q. Did you press him on trying to get more details or anything?
22 A. We tried to get details out of it. At length he told us in
23 fact, that it was an import/export business with relatives in
24 Saudi Arabia.
25 Q. All right. And were you able to get any more details other
877
1 than that?
2 A. Very few, just that it was eventually going to involve the
3 import of grape leaves into Saudi Arabia.
4 Q. While you were pushing him for his information about his
5 income, what kind of -- at any point did Mr. Moussaoui become
6 angry with you?
7 A. He did.
8 Q. Can you tell us what happened?
9 A. When we -- when I suggested to Mr. Moussaoui that it seemed
10 strange that he was unable to remember his, what he did for a
11 living, what his job duties involved, how much money he made, who
12 his relatives were who were supplying him these funds, he got very
13 agitated and began telling Special Agent Weess and myself about
14 his academic qualifications.
15 Q. And what were those?
16 A. That he had obtained a Master's degree from South Bank
17 University in the United Kingdom.
18 Q. Okay. And did he tell you if he had any advanced degrees as
19 well?
20 A. He did. He said he had a Master's degree as well.
21 Q. All right. Now, at any point did you show him the Arvest
22 Bank slip, which I think is Exhibit MN-639.4? Could we bring that
23 up? The one that he had showed you at the time of arrest, did you
24 show that back to Mr. Moussaoui.
25 A. We did, yes, sir.
878
1 Q. And could you tell us, did you have questions about that?
2 A. We did. Special Agent Weess and myself noted that upon
3 arrival in the United States, he had $32,000 to deposit into an
4 account. We informed him we considered that unusual. And he
5 repeated that he had been working a lot and saved his money and
6 that that was the result.
7 Q. And was he able -- could he give you any other explanation
8 other than that?
9 A. He also said funds had been provided by friends and
10 associates.
11 Q. Could he identify who those friends and associates were?
12 A. He could not. He gave us one name as one nickname as a
13 person that he was in contact with.
14 Q. And what was that nickname?
15 A. The nickname was Talil.
16 Q. Why was it that you were so concerned about who his
17 associates were?
18 A. Because the associates -- we had figured out, we had reasoned
19 that any kind of hijacked plot or any kind of plot involving
20 aircraft would of necessity involve more people; that associates
21 who were providing him money, money which he clearly had been
22 using to reside and operate in the United States, would have
23 probably been provided by those terrorist associates.
24 Q. And could you tell us how is it that his answers affect your
25 interview in terms of how you are proceeding?
879
1 A. The answers dictate the logical course of the interview. We
2 can't ask logical follow-up questions if we're led down different
3 alleys. For example, if I ask about an associate who has provided
4 him money, supplied him with some of this $32,000, and he says the
5 person's name is Talil and he lives in the U.K., and he can't
6 remember the person's name, he can't remember their employment,
7 their source of income, it takes us down all sorts of alleys, wild
8 goose chases, essentially.
9 Q. And do you investigate those things that Mr. Moussaoui tells
10 you?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. And you did do that in this case, didn't you?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Now, in addition to that, did Mr. Moussaoui tell you where he
15 was born?
16 A. He did.
17 Q. And what did he tell you about that?
18 A. He said he was born in Saint Jean De Luz, a city in France.
19 Q. Okay. Did he tell you what the ethnicity of his parents was?
20 A. That they originated in Morocco.
21 Q. Did he tell you about any other family members?
22 A. He did.
23 Q. What was that that he told you?
24 A. He described a brother and his father.
25 Q. Okay. And any discussions about his sister at any point?
880
1 A. No.
2 Q. All right. What did he tell you about his father and his
3 brother in terms of their relationship that he has with them?
4 A. He told us he was estranged from both, that his father was
5 employed as a builder and that his brother was a professor but
6 that he was estranged from both.
7 Q. Did he indicate to you where his -- if he had contact at all
8 with his mother?
9 A. He did not.
10 Q. Okay. Did he tell you where his family resided as of the
11 time that he was interviewed?
12 A. He did, in Narbonne, France.
13 Q. Did you ask him why it was that, since his family lived in
14 France, that he was living in England?
15 A. We did. He stated that it was because he had been educated
16 there and that he liked the qualities of the British people.
17 Q. Now, did you ask him at all about his foreign travel?
18 A. Yes, that was a very important interview item.
19 Q. Why is that an important interview item?
20 A. Because international terrorism by its nature involves plots,
21 operations, and funding that occur overseas that cross the borders
22 of countries.
23 Q. All right. And what is it that he had told you about his
24 travel around the world?
25 A. He told us he had been to Saudi Arabia on one occasion, to
881
1 Morocco. Obviously we understood he had been born in France and
2 educated in the U.K. He explained that. We knew from examining
3 his French passport that he had traveled to Pakistan. And then he
4 also informed us that he had been to Malaysia and Indonesia as
5 well.
6 Q. Did he tell you how long he had been in Pakistan?
7 A. He did.
8 Q. And how long was he, did he report to you that he had been
9 there?
10 A. Two months.
11 Q. And did he tell you why it was that he -- first of all, when
12 was that two-month period that he reported to you that he had been
13 there?
14 A. From December of 2000 to February of 2001.
15 Q. Okay. Did he tell you why it was that he had spent those
16 couple months in Pakistan in the early part of 2001?
17 A. He told us that it was a combination of a business trip with
18 that telephone card company.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. As well as an attempt to find a wife.
21 Q. All right. Did he tell you how long he had been in
22 Indonesia?
23 A. He did.
24 Q. How long?
25 A. Just a week or two.
882
1 Q. Did he tell you why he had been in Indonesia?
2 A. Also part of that telephone card business.
3 Q. Did he tell you how long he had been in Malaysia?
4 A. Just a week or two as well.
5 Q. And did he tell you why he had gone to Malaysia?
6 A. As part of that telephone card business.
7 Q. All right. At any point did Mr. Moussaoui tell you that he
8 was looking to get married at some point?
9 A. He did, in Pakistan.
10 Q. Could you tell us what he told you about that?
11 A. He stated that in response to a question I had about why he
12 had stayed in Pakistan for longer than Indonesia and Malaysia, he
13 said in addition to his business with the telephone card company,
14 he was there looking for a wife and that he had been referred by
15 Talil to a brother, his friend Talil from the United Kingdom, to a
16 brother who lived in Pakistan and that that person was going to
17 help him find a wife.
18 Q. Could this friend Talil, could he give you any more
19 information about Talil?
20 A. He could not.
21 Q. Did you ask him for it?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. Why did you want that additional information about his
24 associate?
25 A. Because we were interested in identifying any associate he
883
1 could name, so that we could run checks on those people as well.
2 Q. So with just a name Talil, you couldn't do that; is that
3 right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. What else did he tell you about his time in Pakistan in terms
6 of where he stayed and where he traveled?
7 A. He told us that the entire time he was in Pakistan, he was
8 staying in hotels in the city of Karachi, that he never traveled
9 outside of Karachi at any time.
10 Q. Okay. And at that time -- during that time he is basically
11 staying with Talil's brother; is that right?
12 A. He is associating with Talil's brother but he is staying in
13 hotels.
14 Q. I'm sorry. Okay. And ultimately was he able to give you a
15 first name for Talil at some point?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what was that first name?
18 A. The following or later in that interview he gave us the first
19 name of Ahmed.
20 Q. But without a last name at that point; is that correct?
21 A. Correct, that's correct.
22 Q. Now, had you asked Mr. Moussaoui during the time period that
23 he was in Pakistan, whether he had traveled to neighboring
24 countries or to other parts of Pakistan other than Karachi?
25 A. Yes, sir, I did.
884
1 Q. What is it that he reported back to you?
2 A. He became very, very agitated by that. He didn't answer that
3 question directly. Even though he previously had stated that he
4 was only in Karachi, when we phrased that question a different way
5 he got very angry and told us that he knew what we were trying to
6 do, and he wasn't going to stand for that. He wasn't going to
7 stand for being treated that way.
8 I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, he knew,
9 he watched TV, and he knew what we were trying to do.
10 Q. All right. You had discussed earlier that you had reviewed
11 Mr. Moussaoui's passport with him; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. If we can bring, give back to the witness Exhibit MN-600.2
14 and bring up page 2 and 3 on the screen. Is that possible? Do
15 you have the exhibit there, MN-600.2?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Directing your attention to page 2, does it have the name of
18 Mr. Moussaoui on there?
19 A. It does.
20 Q. Looking at the screen, by the way, are you looking at -- does
21 the screen depict exactly what you have in your hand there?
22 A. It does.
23 Q. So we have Mr. Moussaoui's name, we have got his picture; is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes, sir.
885
1 Q. And does it have his date of birth on there as well?
2 A. It does.
3 Q. Now, does it indicate when it was that that passport was
4 issued?
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 Q. And what is that date?
7 A. 31 October 2000.
8 Q. And on the top of the next page, does it indicate what his
9 address is? I think it says domicile; is that right?
10 A. It does, yes, sir.
11 Q. What address is indicated on there?
12 A. 23A Lambert Road in London.
13 Q. All right. If we can turn forward to page 8 and 9 and ask
14 you if you can identify an entry stamp on there dated December the
15 9th.
16 A. I can. I can identify one for Karachi Airport in Pakistan
17 for December 9th.
18 Q. Of what year?
19 A. 2000.
20 Q. And is there a corresponding exit stamp for the Karachi
21 International Airport?
22 A. There is, for 7 February 2001.
23 Q. All right. Now, on page 9 also is there a visa that's
24 indicated on there?
25 A. There is. There is a Pakistani, Islamic Republic of Pakistan
886
1 visa.
2 Q. And that's for entry into Pakistan; is that right?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And that visa was issued in what country?
5 A. That visa was issued at the Pakistani High Commission in
6 London, so the country would be England.
7 Q. And what was the date that that visa was issued?
8 A. December 4th of 2000.
9 Q. All right. In London they do it -- we see 4/12/2000. They
10 invert the first two numbers there, right?
11 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
12 Q. All right. And does it indicate what kind of number of
13 visits that are allowed on that visa?
14 A. It was a multiple-entry visa.
15 Q. All right. And how long was the duration of the stay
16 allowed?
17 A. Up until, it looks like, good for journey until December 3rd
18 of 2001.
19 Q. All right. Does it also have duration of each stay; is that
20 right?
21 A. It does, 90 days each.
22 Q. Does it indicate what the purpose of the visit is on that
23 visa?
24 A. Business.
25 Q. All right. Now, if you can turn to page 31, please, of the
887
1 passport and if we can put that up. Is that possible? All right.
2 Are you able to see an entry stamp there
|